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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74376: Jan 4th 2018 at 8:56:26 PM

Would you expect Ribrianne to be beaten in any other way but with the power of love? Hell, the power of love isn't even seen as a "female" thing, since it was Krillin's love for her that did the trick, and the U2 boys got love transformations themselves in the very next episode.

[up]Yeah, but Vegeta used Super Saiyan against Katopesla's Ultimate Form and overpowered him, so Vegeta couldn't have been using SBG against Battle Form.

Just because a character is weaker doesn't mean they mean less or had a worse performance. Roshi did better than Piccolo, but would lose in a fight against him.

edited 4th Jan '18 8:59:14 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74377: Jan 4th 2018 at 8:59:21 PM

Yes, actually. I would very much expect DB not to randomly pull out the power of love when it previously hadn't used the trope like that.

And Goku didn't need the power of love to beat the U 2 boys. HMMMMMMMMM very interesting

[up] But she's weaker AND had a worse performance. I brought up Vegeta's strength because it's tied to his performance, most of his K Os and appearances have been him just being consistently stronger than who he deals with

edited 4th Jan '18 9:00:54 PM by Saiga

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#74378: Jan 4th 2018 at 8:59:26 PM

Ribra's rivalry was with 17 not 18.

Really 17 should have defeated her with the power of love.

[up] He literally brute forced them with a Kamehameha. Clearly the power of love is unnecessary.

edited 4th Jan '18 9:00:30 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#74379: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:00:53 PM

I didn't mind the Power Of Love bit, more or less because Super's made it clear that "being married" is essentially her and Krillin hat now and every major moment they get from now on is probably going to be like that in some way or another. It's a meh realization, but it's not the worst thing Super's been complacent about. Plus it was a cool moment.

I mean how come she was the only one to be almost eaten by Anilaza?

This was the point where I just threw my hands up, because it was almost certainly supposed to make us think about how she got eaten by Cell. You know: "she's getting damselled, and you should care because it's just like the first time she got damseled!"

edited 4th Jan '18 9:06:00 PM by KnownUnknown

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74380: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:01:38 PM

Well, yeah, Goku had Blue, why would he need love? It's not like 18 actually got some kind of "love power-up", all that happened was Krillin's love and cheering gave her the motivation to kick ass.

Vegeta hasn't had to struggle and win a fight yet, all he's done is one-shot opponents that Krillin could beat and fight Toppo for a few minutes before they got cut off.

edited 4th Jan '18 9:03:14 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#74381: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:02:57 PM

Because the threat of Universal Destruction is obviously not enough motivation.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#74382: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:05:08 PM

[up][up][up] Oh my God your right & that just makes it worse cause it wasted something potentially interesting.

They should have had 17 be almost eaten. Dude is remembered for being absorbed first & they could have easily have the Androids suffer PTSD against Anilaza with a cameo from Cell. This would have made 17's victory over Anilza that much more personal & fulfilling.

Fuck it that fight should have been more than one episode.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#74383: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:07:45 PM

It's also really conspicuous, because he tries to eat her and only her, and then the other gab about how it's a great strategy or something, and then it never actually comes up again at all making it clear that the moment was just for the quick drama.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74384: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:08:33 PM

[up][up][up][up] And that is exactly why there is a double standard. Goku was put against opponents he could beat by being cool. 18 was put in a situation where she was ready to give up, and needed to be cheered up by a man to find the motivation to beat her opponent by invoking the power of love. None of that needed to happen.

The fact that Vegeta hasn't had to struggle doesn't make him worse lol. He hasn't had to struggle because he's performing so much better.

18 struggled to show how important Kuririn is to her because yay Kuririn

edited 4th Jan '18 9:10:32 PM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74385: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:10:22 PM

[up][up]Well, no, he does try to grab other people before 18, and he doesn't try anymore because Goku can just teleport them out of harm's way.

[up]But it was cool and made the moment better by making it more personal. That episode's strongest part is when 17 and 18 are just talking with each other about their families, and that was the pay-off of that.

edited 4th Jan '18 9:11:46 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74386: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:15:11 PM

Yes, it would be cool....if she wasn't the only character struggling like that.

Look, I know you like to hype up these types of moments, but would it kill you to at least try and understand why 18 being singled out as the only member needing to "encouragement" from her husband and family while every other powerful fighter didn't need that is kind of...weird.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74387: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:17:21 PM

Yeah... 18 needs to be the source of the pay off for the families, cant have 17 do that

Hmmmmmm

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#74388: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:17:32 PM

Especially when we have 2 other married contestants who receive no such encouragement or focus.

[up] Or Gohan the only other person who has a visible family

edited 4th Jan '18 9:18:30 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#74389: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:18:58 PM

Not that I disagree on the cringiness of giving 18 the whole power of love thing, but to play devil's avocado for a moment, 18's spouse was the only one there at the tournament.

edited 4th Jan '18 9:19:24 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74390: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:19:12 PM

A character is not cool because they succeed at everything with minimal difficulty. A character is cool because they struggle and encounter great opposition before overcoming it and coming out on top. This is literally what they teach you in writing 101.

Curbstomp battles are boring. 18 has looked much cooler than Vegeta in this tournament so far. Closest Vegeta's come to being challenged was in his battle against Toppo, which didn't have a conclusion.

@Saiga You want to give 18's best moment to 17? HMMMMMMMMMMM

edited 4th Jan '18 9:20:30 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74391: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:20:28 PM

They don't need to be present for the characters to be motivated, i dont find that very relevant

On top of it the power of love is just very unfitting for the main cast members

[up] I would advise you ditch any writing class that teaches in such a black and white, reductive manner. It will only do more harm than good.

A lot of cool moments in this series come from curbstomps, and we're originally talking about 'performance' - saying 18 has had a better performance because she struggled is an incredible stretch

edited 4th Jan '18 9:22:42 PM by Saiga

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#74392: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:22:34 PM

"Cool" is subjective but "effectiveness" isn't in this case. 18 has struggled more than almost everyone else. That is a fact. Vegeta has been fighting and succeeding with much less effort. This is also a fact.

Goku has been through a lot of shit (some of which made no sense, but that's another story) but he's been able to handle it much of it on his own, whereas 18 could not. This is also a fact.

Your subjective opinions on what is "cool" does not change how they have been presented.

Edit: Also, I'm not even sure why this conversation is happening, it's possible to still enjoy these moments while acknowledging the sexism inherent to much (all?) of them.

edited 4th Jan '18 9:24:37 PM by LSBK

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74393: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:24:20 PM

She has not struggled more than anyone else. Goku has struggled more than anyone else.

18 has been in one situation she was not able to handle with help, and she said she coould've handled it fine.

edited 4th Jan '18 9:26:11 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#74394: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:25:47 PM

And notice how I said almost everyone and specifically mentioned Goku. But even the way they've struggled has been handled noticeably differently, and Goku frankly comes out looking much more competent than she does.

Edit: And before you say "he should", context matters, and even in proper context 18 doesn't come out looking great.

edited 4th Jan '18 9:27:33 PM by LSBK

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#74395: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:26:43 PM

[up][up][up] I enjoyed the love punch but I will criticize it if I am able.

[up] Whenever Goku struggles he comes out looking like a boss, whenever 18 struggles she needs someone's help.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74396: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:27:22 PM

You continue to take things out of context and make comparisons that don't take into consideration other relevant factors.

Goku hasn't struggled more compared to what he has achieved or the strength of his foes

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74397: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:28:22 PM

Do you want me to re-watch the entire Tournament of Power and note every time someone has been saved by someone else? Because I could. It'd be annoying and long, but I could.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#74398: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:28:58 PM

When Goku struggles, he takes it like a champ and then pulls out some of that stamina he's got hidden several miles up his ass. It makes him look strong for overcoming the struggle. When 18 struggles, she needs to get bailed out by her brother or Krillin, and is pretty helpless during it. It denigrates her to build up her rescuer.

And no, you can't just tally up "person gets saved by another person". The context, dynamic, and intention of each instance makes them incomparable.

edited 4th Jan '18 9:31:06 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#74399: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:31:03 PM

PMC: I certainly noticed 18 struggle a lot, but only so that other characters could bail her out. So by your definition she isn't cool? And her only notable victory that I can remember was against a joke character who was admittedly cheating her ass off, but still wouldn't have been a threat to anyone else.

By the way, writing doesn't have rules. It has guidelines at best.

edited 4th Jan '18 9:32:09 PM by Arha

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74400: Jan 4th 2018 at 9:32:44 PM

[up][up][up] That list wouldn't be very useful to people who don't agree with the way you interpret scenes.


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