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FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#7401: Jul 18th 2014 at 3:50:35 PM

[up] (x5)

While I agree, it was a neat bit of filler, I really like how the Abridged version gave King Kai a badass moment instead, having him dispatch the Ginyus' single-handedly.

edited 18th Jul '14 3:51:04 PM by FOFD

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#7402: Jul 18th 2014 at 4:25:05 PM

It totally hurts the story. Goku spent a year on Kaio's planet and didn't make anywhere near the ludicrous gains they did in filler. Then he moved onto the 100x gravity chamber, which is 10x more than Kaio's planet, brought himself to the brink of death multiple times to get more out of his training, and it's still not the power up the humans got. The time-span isn't "iffy", it's a total joke.

I'd have no problem with the humans getting that strong after their time with Kaio's. But six days in? No way. Goku tearing through the Ginyus was one thing, but when all the humans can do it it turns them into a total joke.

And for what? Brainless pandering. Throw the Dog a Bone is a horrible defence of it, because the characters don't deserve jack. Characters are nothing more than tools of a story, there to serve the story. Characters being given glory at the expense of the story is the absolute nadir of storytelling.

It doesn't benefit the story for all the reasons Tobias mentioned, and it takes away from the story by being unbelievable even by Dragon Ball's standards.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7403: Jul 18th 2014 at 4:35:19 PM

[up][awesome][tup] Well said.

I'm often in the camp of "Give the supporting characters something important to do." But do it in a way that doesn't feel contrived and ass pull-ish. The Z-Fighters on King Kai's were able to curb stomp the Ginyu Force and supposedly surpass Goku in strength in six days?!? I know the series thrives off of Power Creep, Power Seep, but that is just ridiculous. It just makes Goku's Training from Hell from the beginning Saiyan Arc to the beginning Namek Arc seem pointless. And in a way, it makes the Kaioken technique seem redundant if you can reach a Kaioken-like power level without supposedly having to learn the technique. Thank God that fight only happened in filler and the manga was more ambiguous with how strong the Z-Fighters became on King Kai's planet.

edited 18th Jul '14 4:37:38 PM by FireShadow

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#7404: Jul 18th 2014 at 4:45:02 PM

You guys do remember that in Guldo's case, he was actually weaker than Vegeta was back on Earth, so Chiaotzu still had a power level less than 20,000 in that filler. Also, Tien needed to use a Kaio-ken like move in order to beat Jeice and Burter, whereas Goku was running circles around them without even trying or using the Kaio-ken.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7405: Jul 18th 2014 at 4:49:39 PM

I tend to agree with the sentiment that shows with large casts should use those casts. It' sa common criticism of a los tof ongoing shounen like Bleach and Naruto and I'm glad to see people apply it to Dragon Ball as well. If you're going to have these "fighters" there, make use of them. Having Ichigo and Goku hog all the spotlight is not good storytelling either.

Of course a topic on Kaizenshuu shows me not everyone even agrees about what qualifies as giving everyone a chance. For myself, I view the Tournaments in DB were a great way to show off the other fighters' abilities. Others seem to disagree and say it only made krillin look worse when he stood no chance against Goku in the 22nd Budokai.

YMMV I guess.

edited 18th Jul '14 4:52:34 PM by Nikkolas

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#7406: Jul 18th 2014 at 4:58:46 PM

I'm often in the camp of "Give the supporting characters something important to do." But do it in a way that doesn't feel contrived and ass pull-ish. The Z-Fighters on King Kai's were able to curb stomp the Ginyu Force and supposedly surpass Goku in strength in six days?!? I know the series thrives off of Power Creep, Power Seep, but that is just ridiculous. It just makes Goku's Training from Hell from the beginning Saiyan Arc to the beginning Namek Arc seem pointless. And in a way, it makes the Kaioken technique seem redundant if you can reach a Kaioken-like power level without supposedly having to learn the technique. Thank God that fight only happened in filler and the manga was more ambiguous with how strong the Z-Fighters became on King Kai's planet.

This. I'm also in the camp of giving supporting characters something important to do, but this wasn't even that. There was nothing important in the Ginyu fight. Even in-story, the only reason they were there was for Yamcha, Tien, and Chiaotzu to fight them. Nothing is gained by defeating them. None of the characters benefit in any way from this fight. Even for filler, this was a case where if these events never happened at all, nothing would change in any conceivable way.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#7407: Jul 18th 2014 at 5:00:07 PM

Saying Ichigo hogs the spotlight is absolutely ridiculous. He can be gone for years at a time while plenty of other characters get to do shit. Really, it's a small handful of characters who don't often get to do anything and that's because they're too weak. Making them all powerful for the sake of pandering would hurt the story because you need weaker characters so the strong ones actually mean something.

Same thing for Dragon Ball. The Namek arc didn't have Goku hogging the spotlight, he's out for most of it. Plenty of other characters get screen time in Dragon Ball, especially as the series progresses. And not everyone is going to be top tier in both power and story importance, that's an extremely unrealistic ideal. The human characters are supporting characters.

And the whole point of them being killed off in the first place is to reduce the cast size. Toriyama does this a lot, it's very obvious in earlier arcs where Goku will go off on his own. Writing them out by having them train on Kaio's means being able to better balance screen-time for the characters who are going to move the plot forward. Frankly, I think he could have afforded to have Chaozu and Tenshinhan stay dead. They don't contribute a whole lot moving forward and it'd be in their characters to choose to do so (especially if the second revivals couldn't happen and Chaozu had to stay dead).

[up][up][up] That's a lie made up by the Dragon Ball wiki. Ten used no such technique, and he actually divided himself which made him weaker.

edited 18th Jul '14 5:04:24 PM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#7408: Jul 18th 2014 at 5:13:46 PM

[up] Even then, Tien still needed to try against those two, whereas Goku was kicking their asses with hardly any effort on his part.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7409: Jul 18th 2014 at 5:16:12 PM

The whole concept of Goku "hogging the spotlight" comes straight from overexposure of the Dragon Ball Z movies and "fans" having this warped idea that that's how main show works.

No. Goku doesn't automatically defeat all his opponents with the Spirit Bomb.

No. Goku doesn't kill every major villain.

edited 18th Jul '14 5:16:31 PM by FireShadow

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#7410: Jul 18th 2014 at 5:23:31 PM

[up][up] Only because Ten cut his power level in half. And even then he was schooling them effortlessly.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#7411: Jul 18th 2014 at 5:29:46 PM

I can't argue with a single thing any of you have said.

I'm still gonna choose to like it anyway, but I recognize the utter uselessness of it.

So once again, you ruin everything for me. Thanks a lot.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#7412: Jul 18th 2014 at 5:37:30 PM

Really, when it comes right down to it a lot of manga/anime fall under the whole YMMV thing; there are no right or wrong opinions on this kind of stuff when it comes to liking something, and the opinions of other people on a specific work shouldn't keep you from liking it if you do. If you want to watch something that has something like Super Aryan Hitler in it, then I'm not going to stop you.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#7413: Jul 18th 2014 at 5:38:27 PM

Too late.

Ruined Forever. You all suck!tongue

edited 18th Jul '14 5:39:23 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#7414: Jul 18th 2014 at 5:39:02 PM

Goku hogging the spotlight. [lol]

The entire DBZ formula involves him staying out of action for most of the arc and only coming at the end to clean things up.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#7415: Jul 18th 2014 at 5:39:40 PM

[up]

And he usually fails.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7416: Jul 18th 2014 at 6:05:12 PM

Goku spectacularly failed in coming in to "save the day" in the Buu arc, Cell arc and Android Arc. Hell, Goku unwittingly made things worse in the Buu arc. tongue

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#7417: Jul 18th 2014 at 6:08:36 PM

Still better than Gohan who screwed things up something fierce twice for the exact same reason: as soon as he gets a power-up he goes on a power trip and plays around with his opponent instead of finishing him off.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#7418: Jul 18th 2014 at 6:22:29 PM

My word, all of two times? That's extreme! That's a whole 10 times less than the amount of fuck ups Goku made in the same arcs!

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7419: Jul 18th 2014 at 6:25:00 PM

At least Gohan got the job half done... most of the time. The first time he got a power up he defeated Cell and it only took the death of Goku, Future Trunks and King Kai and a major assist from Vegeta. tongue

The second he got a power up... Super Buu just outsmarted him. Hell, Super Buu outsmarted everyone damn near all the time. He was just playing with the Z-Fighters like pawns to the point where you can consider him the The Chessmaster. I mean, he technically never lost a battle and came so close to winning.

Saiyans overall though have a piss poor record when it comes to handling power ups.

edited 18th Jul '14 6:25:35 PM by FireShadow

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#7420: Jul 18th 2014 at 6:37:53 PM

In both arcs Goku's main mistake was trusting things to people other than himself.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#7421: Jul 18th 2014 at 6:46:50 PM

Mmm no, it was the things he did himself. He really had no choice in the Cell arc to use Gohan, who was the only one strong enough, but then he went and didn't tell Gohan, didn't help him, gave up a Senzu and healed Cell. All of these made things go sour.

Then in the Boo arc he holds back against Vegeta, avoids finishing Boo, doesn't let Goten/Trunks use the room, lets Gohan et al die to save Dende despite the Dragon Balls being destroyed anyway, fails against Boo, fails at powering up, refuses to throw the Genki Dama, and starts losing the struggle with the Genki Dama.

VS. Fat Boo is pretty much the only time he shouldn't have trusted others, but in every other situation he's basically the least capable person of getting shit done.

edited 18th Jul '14 6:49:07 PM by Saiga

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#7422: Jul 18th 2014 at 6:57:00 PM

Oh please, in Cell saga none of those things mattered. Healing Cell didn't help him in the slightest. Goku's plan would go without a hitch if Gohan didn't decide to do his best Vegeta impression and stall killing Cell.

In Buu saga he just wanted to leave saving the world to the next generation... we know how well that went.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#7423: Jul 18th 2014 at 7:13:02 PM

Healing Cell totally mattered, because it meant that he was actually still a threat and Gohan couldn't beat him. His plan would not have worked because Gohan didn't understand and refused to fight, it took outside factors and Cell actively helping them to get Gohan to turn Super Saiyan 2. Goku couldn't, and didn't, plan for that. So he gets no credit, and only gets strikes against him for the shit he did wrong (which is basically everything he did).

It went better than if Goku keeps sticking around, because man he can not stop fucking up. After he re-entered the plot everyone else has to bend over backwards to keep him from dooming them all.

If he hadn't come back, there wouldn't be any Boo.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#7424: Jul 18th 2014 at 7:29:51 PM

Lol, all Gohan needed to do was release his power and kill Cell. There's hardly anything Goku could do about the fact that even after all the training Gohan was chickening out.

Better without him? Ha, they didn't last a day before he had to come back because they screwed up. And it's not even because of lack of power, both Gohan and Gotenks were strong enough to destroy Boo, they simply dropped the ball something fierce.

Bottom line is, not once when Goku tried to leave things to others did it go well.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#7425: Jul 18th 2014 at 7:37:11 PM

Except for, you know, fucking explaining that. They had 9 days before-hand he could have used, he didn't even let Gohan know he was stronger than Goku. And if he hadn't healed Cell, Gohan would have had it even easier. If he'd healed himself, he could have joined in - everybody could have joined in - and there's absolutely no reason to make the fight one on one. He straight up admits he doesn't know if Cell has more power in reserve, but despite bringing up that possibility, makes absolutely no contingency for it. When it would have been laughably easy to do so - no, easier to do so.

And he didn't even last half a day before making multiple screw ups and needing the help of multiple people to bail him out. Hell, if he hadn't shown up, Boo was about to defuse and had no-one to absorb to beat Gohan. He only absorbed Gohan when Goku distracted him.

edited 18th Jul '14 7:37:47 PM by Saiga


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