Worf may have been over-done, but that doesn't mean The Worf Effect isn't a tool that can be used like any other.
Cataloging a trope that is only ever negative is a LOT less useful than cataloging the overall writing tool that can go either way. Then you can just note what happens when it goes too far on that trope page.
edit: And characters who go through The Worf Effect can still be re-used, just like Vegeta. That the eponymous worf is overdone usage of the trope doesn't mean the trope only has to be focused on overdone usages, it just makes him the most obvious example that people with definitely recognize due to the extremity.
edited 30th Dec '17 5:35:39 PM by Saiga
I'm firm believer of Tropes Are Tools, but it's been a long time since I've seen worfing use effectively.
I suppose for me it's always going to how badly the character gets worfs these days.
Hence why Vegeta's fans are under the impression that Toriyama hates. It's a stretched but when you see how many times Vegeta gets his ass kicked, it's get very irritating.
Being a Bleach fan makes me angry at the trope even more so.
edited 30th Dec '17 5:43:15 PM by agent-trunks
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No, the reason people think Toriyama hates Vegeta is because they don't understand his role or the importance of tropes like that.
Toriyama repeatedly lets Vegeta get back up off his feat before having him worf. That makes him an effective worf, and balances out. Since he's not the main character, you can't expect more from him that that.
The same thing with Bleach characters... for the most part. The chronic losers aren't examples of the worf effect because their loss isn't meant to establish someone's strength, but to be consistent with the strengths of those characters.
edited 30th Dec '17 5:51:38 PM by Saiga
Man, you guys had a fight while I was sleeping. I'll just say one thing: power scaling and power inconsistencies are not the same thing. Power scaling is when people complain that 17 or Trunks shouldn't be as strong as the narrative says they are, which I am not referring to when I talk about the manga thing. When I bring up the manga problem, I am referring to a power inconsistency, which is much less common in the Super anime than people seem to think it is. Closest to the Vegeta vs Black thing that happens in the anime is Kale vs Blue/God, which is frankly not as bad.
I already responded to the Vegeta issue, and presented an explanation. The fact that it's the only inconsistency makes me suspicious that it's as inconsistent as you make it out to be.
And even if it IS what you claim it to be, Kale is still far worse. Here's the chain:
God Goku > Controlled Kale > Berserk Kale >/= Perfect Kale >/= Berserk Kale > Blue Goku. At least the Vegeta chain doesn't have the same character appear in the chain in a weaker form than what they were using before
Then you've got several inconsistencies where you claim the character is holding back without evidence, including cases where the characters outright SAY they aren't holding back.
Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Ultimate Gohan > Super Saiyan 2 Goku > Ultimate Gohan ("this is my full power") > Super Saiyan 2 Gohan = Super Saiyan 2 Goku (because base Gohan = base Goku before).
edit: Oh yeah and Perfect Kale could break through the barrier that 17 couldn't, even thought 17 is meant to be close to Blue? Mooooooore inconsistencies! And I could just keep going all day.
edited 30th Dec '17 6:02:01 PM by Saiga
<Comes back to the thread>
Holy shit! We jumped an extra four pages!
And as I recall, there's no new episode today right?
Man, Power Levels ruin everything again, since I'm pretty sure that's what we're talking about.
One Strip! One Strip!I read your explanation, and there's no way that MSS2 Vegeta is stronger than MSS2 Trunks by over 100 times over. "The Super Saiyan multipliers are just smaller" is a cheap excuse supported by nothing that only exists to be thrown out as a way to create a sloppy retcon, which creates a whole slew of other problems you don't want to get into. Cabba gets about the same boost Vegeta does with Super Saiyan, so you can't even argue that it's an in-universe thing of Super Saiyan getting weaker over time.
What are you even talking about with "Perfect Kale"? There was never any implication that the form Kale took while fighting the Pride Troopers was stronger than her Berserk form, there's no need to bother including that in the least, and without it, it's just: SSG Goku > Mastered Kale > Berserk Kale > suppressed SSB Goku (he does outright say he's only using a little more power, and it's consistent with him using a suppressed Blue to test his opponents all throughout the arc).
With Gohan, there are two explanations. One, Gohan was lying when he said it was his full power, which makes sense with him begging Goku to go Blue so he can test himself against his father at his best. Two, Gohan literally pushed himself to achieve power to fight Blue Goku at the same time Goku used SSB. I think it's the former, but I've seen arguments for the latter.
Finally, this argument was dropped pages ago, and I just wanted to make a quick clarification of what I meant. Can we move on?
edited 30th Dec '17 6:14:31 PM by PushoverMediaCritic
Do you really think that the anime uses the official Super Saiyan multipliers? Because Toei have never stuck to that, and while I would prefer that new material did, I'm not going to expect that Toyotarou did either. And I never said it was an in-universe thing, just a trend I acknowledged that everyone does.
Caulifla said she controlled the power at that point, so yeah, there's an implication that 'Perfect Kale' is meant to have that power in a controlled state.
And no, you brought it up again. Also, once again, it's incredibly poor form to make an argument and ask OTHER people to drop it so that you can have the last word.
If this isn't QFT then I don't know what is.
Then why did you bring it back up?
edited 30th Dec '17 6:23:35 PM by agent-trunks
Remember when Ginyu, Frieza, and Vegeta were playing on the Play Station?
Ha ha ha. What a story, Mark.I brought it back up because I wasn't present for the discussion and much of it was triggered by a misunderstanding of what I meant, so I felt a quick clarification would help to remedy the situation and better represent my position.
It's not about trying to get the last word in, it's just about trying to clarify what I meant.
edited 30th Dec '17 6:33:35 PM by PushoverMediaCritic
Everyone knew what you meant. Power scaling and inconsistency are still related, mainly, because this started with a perceived inconsistency in power scaling.
Except you then responded with further arguments AND then asked to stop, which is 100% getting the last word in.
edited 30th Dec '17 6:39:55 PM by Saiga
Alright let just move on from the pissing contest shall we?
I remember it from a commercial, I just don't what game it was from. Unless it's from Legends.
Let’s settle this once and for all, Mr. Satan is stronger and cooler than everyone else and could totally beat up Majin UI SSGSS 4 x 100 KK Vegito. Enough of this.
Who’s getting into the DB Fighterz beta next month?
edited 30th Dec '17 7:14:34 PM by Larfleeze
Do you know what people want the most? Something somebody else has.

I think the reverse, because jobbing is a necessary part of wrestling while worfing refers to Worf, who basically lost every fight he was in till it became a meme and a lot of other worf tropes like The Worf Barrage refer to things that very rarely work (like Vegeta's Beam Spam). Like, a wrestler can job a fight and then go back to business as normal unless they've been buried (which is a negative term and I think the proper counterpart to The Worf Effect).
edited 30th Dec '17 5:32:47 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"