I mean, you can argue that Piccolo's not as strong as he should be. That's a fair point. I just don't see Android 17 hitting the Next Tier Power-Up note as particularly egregious.
I still think that Piccolo's years of training are working in his favour. Really, we just don't know enough about the original Nameless Namek (since I highly, highly doubt he was that strong as a child) to know if Piccolo's strength in his fight with 17 takes into account all the power he had accumulated up until that point as well.
(I'll tell you what's hilarious though - Kami potentially being selected as well, Kami, based on his amazing power only to lose almost all of it splitting off King Piccolo).
I'd prefer Tien to get some good not-dumb moments, but if he can't have that just retire him. Don't drag him out and humilate him like he's Ric Flair and Super is WCW.
edited 30th Dec '17 4:43:18 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Any argument that 17's power up is logical clearly ignores 18 not having the same gains despite regularly training with her husband, who is a martial artist. They're twins, so unless the Y-chromosome makes that much a difference, what makes 17 superior to 18? What, are poachers better training buddies than Krillin? Are they the same species as Tagoma?
But it wasn't that. It was... something else. In which Tien was wasted, quite frankly. And in which lots of other stupid things have been happening.
The weird thing about TOP is that it's doing that but at same time it isn't. Roshi, Piccolo & Krillin got their spotlight & 17 & 18 got their moments. I've seen people trying to make the best out of Tien's dilemma.
It wasn't a convincing jobbing either.
edited 30th Dec '17 4:47:47 PM by agent-trunks
It's not a next tier power-up, it's several tiers of power ups beyond where 17 is. And it's just so unnecessary. Even if you can handwave it, why handwave it for him?
I think Piccolo does benefit from his training, just not really that match because 'stronger than Freeza' to 'equal with 17' is not a MASSIVE gap.
We're still talking about the same guy who became a god tier character in 4 months cuz he didn't bother training in his life before. Apparently he can't become any stronger than he is now according to Revival of F's YMMV Asspull section.
Okay my point was that Krillin went from a normal person to significantly stronger than a normal person. 17 went from his 'normal' to significantly stronger than his normal. That what was normal for him was so high doesn't mean he couldn't get massive power gains. Even discounting Guru's powerup how many times stronger was Krillin compared to before he trained?. 17 would need to get what 8-10x stronger to match ssj3 Goku. That is more than reasonale looking at where everyone else started to where they ended.
I think part of the problem is that we don't know how much Android 17 knows about, for example, ki. Like, if he knows basically nothing and is just doing all this stuff in the Cell Saga from nothing then that's putting his base body way beyond NN by default since even if Piccolo's actual power contributions to NN is negligible he has loads of experience actually using ki and can get a lot more out of the body.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
x7 Far more than 8-10x stronger given the series power-scaling and official multipliers. But even 10 times is huge. I'm not about to go Pushover and pull out unsolicited fan-made power levels since I doubt you're interested, but just going over official material and statements it is well over 20 times.
And again, there's no universal rule of being able to get X times stronger than what you started at. Kuririn's gains mean absolutely nothing to support 17 making greater gains in different circumstances by only training on his own.
Training on your own, with no extra support (higher gravity, weights, time dilation etc) is the worst form of training in the series. On top of that, the characters are mentioned as hittings walls and getting diminishing returns as they get stronger. Both of these contribute to 17's training should not be as effective as it was.
edited 30th Dec '17 5:01:34 PM by Saiga
Time dilation isn't a training aid, it just gives you more time to train.
Also, talking this much about an aspect of a series I don't really care about makes my eyes glaze over. I'm going to give the win to Saiga because he's probably right.
The real TL:DR of this is "Super's power scaling is fucking stupid".
edited 30th Dec '17 5:03:11 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"So I just googled "Chris Benoit" and the second link was "Chris Benoit double-murder and suicide."
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

edited 30th Dec '17 4:36:13 PM by Saiga