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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73626: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:35:54 PM

[up][up][up][up] No he didn't, he had Guru's power-up. Before that, there were soooo many people stronger than him, and he was at a level many people could reach. After that, there were a lot less people stronger than him because most of the stronger ones died.

[up][up][up]Piccolo had been training for years but only in his separated form. Really, 17 was as strong as the newly formed Nameless Namekian who then went on to immediately become much stronger than that. 17 wasn't as strong as the Nameless Namekian with decades of training under his belt, but one who could have only benefited from the training he'd done before reaching his complete self. The Nameless Namekian was stronger than Freeza before defusing, so he has more right to claim potential than anynoe else.

edited 30th Dec '17 4:36:13 PM by Saiga

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73627: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:36:04 PM

It be cool if Tien got those enlightenment powers that third eye of his is supposed to give him.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73628: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:37:45 PM

What Tenshinhan needs is to stay retired.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73629: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:40:03 PM

[up] True.

Just saying if your gonna bring him back then do something with him cause its not worth it if all he's gonna do is job.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73630: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:42:32 PM

I mean, you can argue that Piccolo's not as strong as he should be. That's a fair point. I just don't see Android 17 hitting the Next Tier Power-Up note  as particularly egregious.

I still think that Piccolo's years of training are working in his favour. Really, we just don't know enough about the original Nameless Namek (since I highly, highly doubt he was that strong as a child) to know if Piccolo's strength in his fight with 17 takes into account all the power he had accumulated up until that point as well.

(I'll tell you what's hilarious though - Kami potentially being selected as well, Kami, based on his amazing power only to lose almost all of it splitting off King Piccolo).

I'd prefer Tien to get some good not-dumb moments, but if he can't have that just retire him. Don't drag him out and humilate him like he's Ric Flair and Super is WCW.

edited 30th Dec '17 4:43:18 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#73631: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:45:53 PM

All we know of the original Nameless Namekian's strength is that he could've beaten Frieza, if I'm remembering right.

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#73632: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:47:11 PM

Any argument that 17's power up is logical clearly ignores 18 not having the same gains despite regularly training with her husband, who is a martial artist. They're twins, so unless the Y-chromosome makes that much a difference, what makes 17 superior to 18? What, are poachers better training buddies than Krillin? Are they the same species as Tagoma?

agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#73633: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:47:28 PM

Tien doesn't need a stupid power-up, the entire tournament of power should have been lower level uni 7 characters fighting lower level characters from enemy universes so Goku, Vegeta, Gohan and the other heavy hitters didn't need to wear themselves out on fodder and could fight the heavy hitters of the other universes.

But it wasn't that. It was... something else. In which Tien was wasted, quite frankly. And in which lots of other stupid things have been happening.

The weird thing about TOP is that it's doing that but at same time it isn't. Roshi, Piccolo & Krillin got their spotlight & 17 & 18 got their moments. I've seen people trying to make the best out of Tien's dilemma.

Just saying if your gonna bring him back then do something with him cause its not worth it if all he's gonna do is job.

It wasn't a convincing jobbing either.

edited 30th Dec '17 4:47:47 PM by agent-trunks

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73634: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:47:35 PM

It's not a next tier power-up, it's several tiers of power ups beyond where 17 is. And it's just so unnecessary. Even if you can handwave it, why handwave it for him?

I think Piccolo does benefit from his training, just not really that match because 'stronger than Freeza' to 'equal with 17' is not a MASSIVE gap.

agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#73635: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:52:39 PM

We're still talking about the same guy who became a god tier character in 4 months cuz he didn't bother training in his life before. Apparently he can't become any stronger than he is now according to Revival of F's YMMV Asspull section.

Jedi1113 Since: Jun, 2009
#73636: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:52:57 PM

Okay my point was that Krillin went from a normal person to significantly stronger than a normal person. 17 went from his 'normal' to significantly stronger than his normal. That what was normal for him was so high doesn't mean he couldn't get massive power gains. Even discounting Guru's powerup how many times stronger was Krillin compared to before he trained?. 17 would need to get what 8-10x stronger to match ssj3 Goku. That is more than reasonale looking at where everyone else started to where they ended.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73637: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:53:44 PM

I think part of the problem is that we don't know how much Android 17 knows about, for example, ki. Like, if he knows basically nothing and is just doing all this stuff in the Cell Saga from nothing then that's putting his base body way beyond NN by default since even if Piccolo's actual power contributions to NN is negligible he has loads of experience actually using ki and can get a lot more out of the body.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Gehayadren Bad Movie Binge Collector from A Garbage Fire Since: Jun, 2016 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#73638: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:56:49 PM

[up][up][up]Relying on YMMV for an opinion is like asking Chris Benoit for childcare advice.

Ha ha ha. What a story, Mark.
agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#73639: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:57:19 PM

I just want to repeat I'm ok with this.

[up] That is not only a god awful comparison, but just in bad taste in general.

I wasn't even using that as a fact check as so much I'm just referencing it since where we're on right now.

edited 30th Dec '17 4:58:41 PM by agent-trunks

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73640: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:57:33 PM

[up][up] Damn now that's brutal.

edited 30th Dec '17 4:57:41 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#73641: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:59:25 PM

Bottom-paged. Tl;dr: 17's gains doesn't make sense due to 18's existence.

edited 30th Dec '17 4:59:40 PM by Ikedatakeshi

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73642: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:59:29 PM

[up][up][up][up] Wew, brutal, yet true.

[up] 18 is suffering from housewife syndrome which does have precedent in DB.

edited 30th Dec '17 5:00:40 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73643: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:59:53 PM

[up]x7 Far more than 8-10x stronger given the series power-scaling and official multipliers. But even 10 times is huge. I'm not about to go Pushover and pull out unsolicited fan-made power levels since I doubt you're interested, but just going over official material and statements it is well over 20 times.

And again, there's no universal rule of being able to get X times stronger than what you started at. Kuririn's gains mean absolutely nothing to support 17 making greater gains in different circumstances by only training on his own.

Training on your own, with no extra support (higher gravity, weights, time dilation etc) is the worst form of training in the series. On top of that, the characters are mentioned as hittings walls and getting diminishing returns as they get stronger. Both of these contribute to 17's training should not be as effective as it was.

edited 30th Dec '17 5:01:34 PM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73644: Dec 30th 2017 at 5:01:39 PM

Time dilation isn't a training aid, it just gives you more time to train.

Also, talking this much about an aspect of a series I don't really care about makes my eyes glaze over. I'm going to give the win to Saiga because he's probably right.

The real TL:DR of this is "Super's power scaling is fucking stupid".

edited 30th Dec '17 5:03:11 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73645: Dec 30th 2017 at 5:02:33 PM

I know, but that's to preempt any 'but they could get this strong in just one day' claims.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#73646: Dec 30th 2017 at 5:04:09 PM

So I just googled "Chris Benoit" and the second link was "Chris Benoit double-murder and suicide."

...yeah. Dayam.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#73648: Dec 30th 2017 at 5:06:10 PM

[up][up]

The name didn't ring a bell? I remember it being pretty big news back in 2007. Though granted I was a huge wrestling fan at the time...

edited 30th Dec '17 5:06:21 PM by TyeDyeWildebeest

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#73649: Dec 30th 2017 at 5:06:36 PM

Benoit isn't a name I'd expect to hear in a Dragon Ball thread, but someone managed to mention him contextually. If not poorly.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73650: Dec 30th 2017 at 5:06:48 PM

Is it weird that I think Super Gohan Buu is rather handsome?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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