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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#73601: Dec 30th 2017 at 3:52:28 PM

I alternate between wishing power levels never existed ( or at least weren't so reliant on pure power) and knowing that they should be kept consistent, so I can kinda get both sides.

Now that I hear Saiga's logic, I can kinda get his issues with 17's jump. As already pointed out, the training Piccolo did just before the Cell games (and has probably been doing ever since) should somewhat trump 17 beating up poachers (even if Toriyama did reveal that both he and 18 can get stronger).

The 18 thing is a no brainer though. She's been there, but they refused to use her in favour of her brother who disappear years ago. But lets face it, post Vegeta beat down, 18 has never really been used well (though that's for the same reason most of the characters weren't used well: massive Power Creep rendering her useless despite her advantages).

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73602: Dec 30th 2017 at 3:53:49 PM

[up][up][up] That's literally not what I said.

agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#73603: Dec 30th 2017 at 3:53:50 PM

Ultra Instinct didn't even exist till after the Black Arc.

Also he used the Kaio-Ken on Merged Zamasu not Black.

No, I'm talking about why Black didn't use those techniques.

[up] K, but it doesn't excuse Zamasu being more powerful than Trunks.

edited 30th Dec '17 3:55:40 PM by agent-trunks

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73604: Dec 30th 2017 at 3:54:37 PM

But neither did Goku (against Black), so the comparison is moot.

[up] But I also said that I didn't like anime Zamasu's power. You are arguing against nothing here.

edited 30th Dec '17 3:56:22 PM by Saiga

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73605: Dec 30th 2017 at 3:55:40 PM

Also Ultra Instinct is something even the Gods have a hard time learning.

Super Saiyan is more easier to use than Kaio-Ken.

edited 30th Dec '17 3:56:17 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#73606: Dec 30th 2017 at 3:57:37 PM

That's the problem, when does the wish takes place? Was the wish just "switch bodies with Son Goku" or "switch bodies with Son Goku in his prime"?

Either way, he should've use Kaio Ken at some point.

[up][up] Then I'm arguing nothing.

edited 30th Dec '17 4:00:54 PM by agent-trunks

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73607: Dec 30th 2017 at 3:59:07 PM

We saw a flashback, he switched bodies with Goku at the same point in the timeline, so post-Universe 6 Goku who hadn't met Zamasu yet.

I agree that it doesn't make sense that Black never uses the Kaio-ken, but that's less about power (as then Goku should just use it) and more about the problem with bringing back Kaio-ken to begin with.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73608: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:01:35 PM

"But the bigger issue is that narrative one. He's stronger than characters who by rights should be more powerful than him. As said, Piccolo had a bigger lead in the Android arc and has much more incentive to train harder and is a prodigy. In-universe, that should already lead to him stronger than 17. Out of universe, we as the audience know all this about his character, and he's a major supporting character who is still around compared to the off-screen, out of focus minor character that is 17."

That's an entirely different problem to power scaling. You yourself have defended Goten and Kid Trunks who I see as having exactly the same problems (leapfrogging half the cast). This isn't about whether the powerups feel earned but whether they make sense, and it certainly isn't anything to do with how major they are.

Piccolo may be a prodigy but 17 is a marvel of biological engineering, and Piccolo had also spent a huge amount of time training even before he regained his Nameless Namek body. 17, on the other hand, hadn't really trained before so it stands to reason Piccolo's going to face diminishing returns from training compared to 17 who had barely begun to tap into his body's potential.

edited 30th Dec '17 4:03:15 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Jedi1113 Since: Jun, 2009
#73609: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:01:45 PM

I definitively agree with the narrative issues of 17, especially sidelining 18 but I don't see the issue with his massive gains. Gero made untrained teenagers stronger than Freeza and the legendary form of a warrior race. I can totally buy their modified biology letting them get massive gains from training espeically since he wouldn't be hampered by stamina.

agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#73610: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:02:20 PM

I agree that it doesn't make sense that Black never uses the Kaio-ken, but that's less about power (as then Goku should just use it) and more about the problem with bringing back Kaio-ken to begin with.

But why?

Kaio-Ken is a Dangerous Forbidden Technique that can't be use so recklessly.

I definitively agree with the narrative issues of 17, especially sidelining 18 but I don't see the issue with his massive gains. Gero made untrained teenagers stronger than Freeza and the legendary form of a warrior race. I can totally buy their modified biology letting them get massive gains from training espeically since he wouldn't be hampered by stamina.

More or less why I stop caring. People can call it stupid all they want, but DBZ has never been a consistent series.

edited 30th Dec '17 4:05:43 PM by agent-trunks

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73611: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:03:20 PM

Because the Super Saiyan is superior by having no drawbacks in exchange for a massive power boost.

edited 30th Dec '17 4:03:36 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73612: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:06:23 PM

Super Saiyan doesn't have no drawbacks. At regular unmastered you've got a fair bit of stamina limitations (nowhere near as bad when compared to, say, Freeza's 100% form or Golden form, but they're still there.).

But sort of Stamina limitations are a lot less bad than the toll Kaioken takes on your body and SSJ also provides over double the boost Kaioken can do.

People can call it stupid all they want, but DBZ has never been a consistent series.

As someone who really doesn't care about powerscaling the Super anime is a lot worse about it than Z. Z tended to be inconsistent by introducing suspiciously convenient stuff (Zenkai, hyperbolic time chamber, fusion, higher and higher levels of Super Saiyan, etc). Super anime just doesn't bother explaining shit at all.

edited 30th Dec '17 4:08:55 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73614: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:08:02 PM

But the Kaio-Ken can only be used with Blue.

Unless is the Rose form actually a corrupted Blue?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#73615: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:09:33 PM

Allowing people to have their own interests without passing judgement is a much more reasonable expectation to have of a community.

That's not reasonable at all. Not on the internet, at least.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73616: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:10:36 PM

[up][up]Rose form is the form SSB takes when the body is inhabited by the soul of a Kai. (This explanation only occurs in the manga). Not sure if it has any power difference or if it's just cosmetic.

edited 30th Dec '17 4:10:56 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#73617: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:11:42 PM

I'm assuming we all had the same problem with Black's non-nonsensical power up too, right?

Which one? The one where he went from being roughly around Super Saiyan 2-tier (while holding back, at least) to stronger than Super Saiyan Blue? Or the one where he got mad and got a new power that let him infinitely summon indestructible clones that also negated Instant Transmission?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73618: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:13:09 PM

I'm NOT talking about whether the power ups feel earned, and this isn't the same as Goten and Trunks. Goten and Trunks have narrative reason for being focused on and for being stronger than previous characters, as new characters connected to the most major characters and following in Gohan's footsteps in having great potential.

There are two separate problems I have with 17: how much in-universe sense it makes (power scaling) and the decision to bring back a minor character and focus on him more than current cast members in a similar position (particularly 18) who could use more focus.

I don't think it makes sense in-universe because there is nothing to indicate 17 has that much potential. Gero could make them really strong, that doesn't mean they can then get X percentage stronger from training because there is no universal rule for that. And a lack of precedent is not a good basis for making huge gains, that should come with an existing precedent which supports that.

Ergo, what I'm looking for in a story to justify large power-scaling is an existing reason why this is possible, not "well we didn't say he COULDN'T therefore it's okay that he can". The second is very lazy.

I definitively agree with the narrative issues of 17, especially sidelining 18 but I don't see the issue with his massive gains. Gero made untrained teenagers stronger than Freeza and the legendary form of a warrior race. I can totally buy their modified biology letting them get massive gains from training espeically since he wouldn't be hampered by stamina.

I don't agree with this because Gero's achievement is already very impressive and requires a fair bit of suspension of disbelief for the original. Making that level of power just the tip of the iceburg only stretches that suspension even further.

Again, there is no universal rule for "if you start at X and train, you can become Y times stronger" so just starting out strong isn't a very good basis to make huge gains on top of that. Even thought the infinite stamina would enable someone to train more often than another character, 17 doesn't appear to have been training like that since he has a family and a job, more than most characters who train.

[up][up][up][lol] touche

edited 30th Dec '17 4:13:48 PM by Saiga

agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#73619: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:14:03 PM

But the Kaio-Ken can only be used with Blue.

Unless is the Rose form actually a corrupted Blue?

Going by the Manga (which god knows why we can't just use it to facilitate & make the lore of DBZ easier to comprehend) Rose is apparently what happens when a mix breed of Kai & a Saiyan looks like in their God form.

That's not reasonable at all. Not on the internet, at least.

QFT

Which one? The one where he went from being roughly around Super Saiyan 2-tier (while holding back, at least) to stronger than Super Saiyan Blue? Or the one where he got mad and got a new power that let him infinitely summon indestructible clones that also negated Instant Transmission?

All the above.

edited 30th Dec '17 4:16:44 PM by agent-trunks

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73620: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:16:51 PM

[up] So unless Rose provides the same effect Blue does then he can't stack Kaio-Ken on top of a Super Saiyan form.

Its simple logic.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#73621: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:21:33 PM

[up]

It's not that I can't believe Black can't use Kaio Ken given he's more or less the standard anime protagonist but done so much worse, but rather why they never explain he couldn't. I probably should also mention this isn't some deal breaker to me as so much on why Black's power ups were more acceptable compare to everyone else.

Jedi1113 Since: Jun, 2009
#73622: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:24:47 PM

Krillin went from basically being a normal person to one of the strongest mortals in the universe (exaxt placement up to you) due to training. Manga 17 basically makes a similar leap he just started from a higher point. Him and 18 presumably had zero training or knowledge of ki pre-surgery. They were basically pre-training Krillin. Just because they were turned into a higher state doesn't mean they hit the limits of their potential. They were still untrained. Idk I buy it far more than Roshi and Krillins increases in Super and I really enjoyed their tournament episodes and mostly enjoy the anime in general.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73623: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:25:35 PM

I don't think it makes sense in-universe because there is nothing to indicate 17 has that much potential. Gero could make them really strong, that doesn't mean they can then get X percentage stronger from training because there is no universal rule for that. And a lack of precedent is not a good basis for making huge gains, that should come with an existing precedent which supports that.

I'm not going to touch the narrative stuff, mainly because I don't completely disagree, I simply think that it has precedent in DB and DBZ. Remember Yajirobe? He was one of the strongest humans when he was just introduced. He was just around for one arc, really, (and to cut off Vegeta's tail.)

As for the power scaling, 17 probably has a stronger base body than any living fighter in universe 7 except:

  1. Beerus+Whis+Gods that are technically uni 7 that I forgot about
  2. all the Saiyans/Half-Saiyans
  3. Buu
  4. Freeza

17 is also weaker than all of those aforementioned people except Buu, who doesn't train at all.

Remember, his power was more or less on the same level as Piccolo in his Nameless Namek form and Piccolo had been training for years and years by this point.

edited 30th Dec '17 4:29:11 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#73624: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:33:15 PM

You know what, I might as well say this while I'm at it.

If Tien suddenly became a universe buster character because he finally met his fellow 3 eyes race or whatever bs Toriyama said, I would be more than fine with that. All that really means that Tien gets to have more screen time & a non-Saiyan character that isn't from another from universe gets to be relevant. Cynically speaking, it's more likely means he'll be use for the Worf Effect.

I was fine with it when Roshi suddenly was able to kick Freeza's minion's ass & give Frost a run for his money, so I don't see why I should have the same problem with Tien getting a stupid power up.

Granted, I also rather have Piccolo reach that scale first since unlike Tien who apparently went into farm business or something, Piccolo doesn't do anything besides babysit Pan in his spare time.

edited 30th Dec '17 4:34:02 PM by agent-trunks

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73625: Dec 30th 2017 at 4:34:53 PM

Tien doesn't need a stupid power-up, the entire tournament of power should have been lower level uni 7 characters fighting lower level characters from enemy universes so Goku, Vegeta, Gohan and the other heavy hitters didn't need to wear themselves out on fodder and could fight the heavy hitters of the other universes.

But it wasn't that. It was... something else. In which Tien was wasted, quite frankly. And in which lots of other stupid things have been happening.

edited 30th Dec '17 4:36:08 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"

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