Essentially, the manga doesn't force us to swallow as much as the anime. I think the perfect example is Android 17. In the anime he's SSB level, but in the Manga he only made Goku crack out SSJ 3. It's a lot easier to buy 17 going from his Cell Saga level to SSJ 3 than it is him getting to SSB.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"![]()
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17 being SS 3 level out of nowhere is crazy enough on it's own....what was Toriyama thinking?
$20 says Vegeta beats Jiren..../s
edited 30th Dec '17 12:08:04 PM by hardcorefakes
Do you want him to beat Jiren?
It'd be nice, but would it work?
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.I still strongly dislike 17 being at SS2/SS3 level... but man, that is so much better than Goku even using Blue.
This is literally the only thing you have to cling to, and it's not even accurate. Black wasn't a Super Saiyan 2, despite the sparks his hairstyle and the story state he is a Super Saiyan. The rest does look pretty contradictory, unless Vegeta is also in the "MSS2" state - because what Trunks does appears identical to how Vegeta powered up against Beerus. And Vegeta in that state was stronger than Goku. It's stupid, but it's from BOG, so Toyotarou building off that at least does something with that.
The main thing this shows, is that the gap between the Super Saiyan forms isn't enormous like it was in the manga. That appears consistent within the manga (Goku vs Hit) and is annoying but honestly what I expected. And the Super anime (and Toei in general) has never portrayed the gaps between forms as big as they should be.
Meanwhile, the Super anime has done plenty worse than that where the only excuse is "x was holding back, even when they say they aren't" and they do it "constantly".
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I think I'd be fine with 17 being near SS 2 level if it was revealed that he had been hardcore training for 7+ years. You know, instead of fighting poachers occasionally....
17 being SS 2/3 is a bit easier to swallow if you can accept they can get stronger through training.
18 was already even with a Super Saiyan, and 17 was implied to be stronger...which Super just runs with.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.I mean, he was Nameless Nameknote level without really ever putting in hardcore training at all. I can imagine seven years of regular (if not super dedicated) training in the wilderness moving him to SSJ 3 level.
Like, in terms of power scaling it's pretty in line with how Dragonball Z did things. I think there is an internal gut reaction of "ehhh" but that's only because we haven't seen him in god-knows how many years.
edited 30th Dec '17 2:20:44 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"I don't think that's in-line with Z overall. They have some moments like that, but it becomes less as the series goes on and Toriyama had a better grasp of his characters' placement in the overall hierarchy.
Piccolo mentions that he does basically nothing but train and he didn't change much over the 7 year gap. And he started out significantly stronger than 17, as his stint in The Room made him much stronger according to Goku and put him somewhere below the Cell Games Super Saiyans who are waaaaaay above the Androids.
But the bigger issue is that narrative one. He's stronger than characters who by rights should be more powerful than him. As said, Piccolo had a bigger lead in the Android arc and has much more incentive to train harder and is a prodigy. In-universe, that should already lead to him stronger than 17. Out of universe, we as the audience know all this about his character, and he's a major supporting character who is still around compared to the off-screen, out of focus minor character that is 17.
Furthermore, bringing back 17 could have been used to give 18 and him focus together as they were still in the same ballpark of strength. Making him so much more powerful really craps on that, and he ends up getting significantly more focus than 18. Why should he? 18 actually joined the cast and hasn't been used as much as she should, why focus on the guy who has a very good reason not to be?
As iffy as I find it in-universe, my real issues are with the narrative consequences for the existing characters when 17 is brought back.
I mean, it's certainly better than that how Super handled Freeza... in every way. But uh, faint praise.
Seriously, I can understand if these things don't personally bother you, but telling other people they shouldn't be bothered by them is just as rude as insisting that everyone should care. Which I don't anyone here actually does, by the way, despite certain people going on about how this thread is "toxic" for talking about things they like in (not even entirely) negative terms.
edited 30th Dec '17 3:41:17 PM by LSBK
I really don't care anymore, because the amount of times I've been told Trunks shouldn't have been that powerful, but it was fine for Black & Zamasu. & if everyone thinks I'm telling how people how they should feel something, I'm not.
There's already substantial amount of Opinion Myopia in the DBZ community regardless
edited 30th Dec '17 3:49:27 PM by agent-trunks
That just sounds like a Single-Issue Wonk and bias on your part.
Black was using Goku's body, and even though I disagree with his later power ups they have much more grounding than Trunks'. I do prefer Zamasu's manga version, who is weaker than Trunks. I could also buy him being stronger than Trunks without being God-tier.

Re:Parodies: I don't like how the Ginyu Squad and the U11 whatstheirname blokes are supposed to parody Super Sentai... and NOT ONCE have they used a giant robot or even a team bazooka. If you don't use those elements, then what's even the point of anything?
De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.