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EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#73526: Dec 29th 2017 at 8:16:11 PM

finally actually catching up on super rather than just watching neato scenes and finding out what happened from other people...

  • The U6 vs U7 tournament was mostly bland. Cool stuff with Vegeta and Cabba. It's pretty clear very early on why Super is worse than Z- comparing how the plot plays out to literally any Z arc will find noticeable differences in how side characters are used and techniques and blah blah blah you all argued this to death already
  • Hit was way cooler than I thought he would be. I saw a bit of the fight but I never got why people liked him. Actually watching the episodes where Goku and Hit fought showed me exactly why, and I think he could've been a way more memorable antagonist had the scenario around him been written better.
  • time travel stuff is bullshit. I mean, Z wasn't stellar with time travel either, so I can't complain too much, but it's still a headache.
  • I still can't believe Goku never kissed Chi Chi. Like, that actually makes zero sense. Negative sense! It's actively contradictory to any sane line of logic. They got married for pete's sake! You have to kiss when you say "I do"! Like??? plus they fucked at least twice and there's no way chi chi wasn't hittin those lips up So i'm going to promptly ignore that forever and pretend that line never happened.
  • I have seriously no idea where people get the idea (cougn cough Masako X) that Goku doesn't care for Chi Chi or his family as, well, family. There was an entire scene earlier dedicated to Goku actually considering what his actions mean for his family (when he was "taking care" of Pan) as well as several scenes making it very clear that Goku sees his family in a slightly different, closer, light than most other people. Whether Goku is a good father or not is a different debate, but there should be no doubt that Goku loves his family as, well, his family.
  • Goku Black is still a super super cool villain. Sure, Zamasu and Goku Black's line of logic is stupid but man Goku Black is badass,
  • The mafuba is stupid, super saiyan rage trunks is cool and stupid, SSB Vegito is just cool, power scaling not making sense is coming in full force
  • why does trunks suddenly have blue hair

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#73527: Dec 29th 2017 at 8:22:33 PM

Goku goes from getting ragdolled by Kale, to fighting both Caulifla and Kale at the same time...while exhausted.....in a weaker form than SSB.

Kind of illustrates my larger problem with Super; it has a big obsession with writing "in the moment." As long as they can have their Signature Scene, none of the small details like consistency matter.

So we get Berserker!Kale tossing SSB Goku around like a ragdoll because "member Broly" but then moments later when the scene has past, Goku is back up on his feet, no worse for wear.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#73528: Dec 29th 2017 at 8:22:59 PM

Later power inconsistency aside, making Kale a Broly reference was good imo because we got a pretty sick beatdown out of it.

I'm enamored with the audacity of it. It's neat that the films are actually being referenced here, it's an unexpected bonus for watching those films. Makes you wonder what the animators/writing staff really thought about those seemingly forgettable movies.

I can't think of too many buff, psychotic women from the animes I've watched so Kale's Berserker design was pretty unique.

And that beatdown was insanely fun to watch, especially with Kale's "Son Goku!" mirroring Broly's "Ka-ka-ROT!" I'm happy they did that.

The only thing I wished for was a clothesline somewhere. The scene where Broly headbutts Piccolo, kicks him, clotheslines through Gohan and Trunks and kicks him into the sky was always the best one from that movie.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#73529: Dec 29th 2017 at 8:23:02 PM

I have seriously no idea where people get the idea (cougn cough Masako X) that Goku doesn't care for Chi Chi or his family as, well, family.

We might not be able to pin this on Masako. Toriyama did an interview a while back where he states that Goku sees his family more as close friends than anything else. I can't recall the exact words, but that seems to be how the Bird Mangaka is playing things.

I'm sure someone will bring it up.

As for Trunks having Blue hair...no damn idea.

One Strip! One Strip!
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#73530: Dec 29th 2017 at 8:26:16 PM

[up]Hm. I do remember something like that. However Toriyama is wrong about his own work, then, considering he also wrote moments where Goku is a family man.

Then again it'd hardly be the first time where what Toriyama says he wrote differs from what Toriyama actually wrote

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#73531: Dec 29th 2017 at 8:28:56 PM

I still don't buy the whole "Goku is only heroic in the anime" thing.

This song needs more love.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#73532: Dec 29th 2017 at 8:30:20 PM

Nor do I.

I mean, I can get there being a bit of an intent drift with how he wrote Goku (especially since he winged it for the bulk of the story), but I've never seen someone so intent on derailing their own character...and seeing it as re-railing.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73533: Dec 29th 2017 at 8:32:29 PM

Just look at end of Buu Saga Goku & compare to Super Goku.

There like different characters.

edited 29th Dec '17 8:41:05 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#73534: Dec 29th 2017 at 8:35:31 PM

It makes watching Kai and Super back to back on Toonami pretty jarring. tongue

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73535: Dec 29th 2017 at 9:12:44 PM

Toriyama indicated he felt he was too subtle with the 'poison' in Goku as he originally wrote him, so it's not just him blaming the anime. And the difference would be that Toriyama is trying to make that more pronounced so that it isn't missed again, which I think he went too far on. Manga Goku was already selfish enough without being completely stupid/unlikable. And that kind of trait isn't good to have if you're never going to have pay-off for it.

Later power inconsistency aside, making Kale a Broly reference was good imo because we got a pretty sick beatdown out of it. All this "but why does she have more hidden power inside of her than I think she should have had" talk is pretty silly to me.

It's not what people 'think' she should have, we've got plenty of baselines to measure her against. For her to have a unique, unexplained form and more hidden power than the much more establshed Saiyans (including Son "I am the Ur-Example of Hidden Power" Gohan) with very little build up or development as a new character is ridiculous. Especially when said form was established as forcing Caulifla to Super Saiyan 2, which is hilariously far off Blue.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#73536: Dec 29th 2017 at 9:17:19 PM

She doesn't have more hidden power than Gohan. Her strongest form was at a disadvantage against SSG Goku, while Gohan can trade blows with and stand Kamehameha-ing alongside SSB Goku.

edited 29th Dec '17 9:19:10 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#73537: Dec 29th 2017 at 9:28:56 PM

It's not what people 'think' she should have, we've got plenty of baselines to measure her against. For her to have a unique, unexplained form and more hidden power than the much more establshed Saiyans (including Son "I am the Ur-Example of Hidden Power" Gohan) with very little build up or development as a new character is ridiculous. Especially when said form was established as forcing Caulifla to Super Saiyan 2, which is hilariously far off Blue.

That still sounds a lot like you think a legendary super saiyan form shouldn't be as strong as it is, which is on you. Gohan didn't get that form so you can't really compare the results.

And Caulifla deflected a blast, that doesn't necessarily mean she was comparable in power. Even Tien was able to deflect a blast from Majin Buu.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73538: Dec 29th 2017 at 9:32:41 PM

[up][up] We're talking about the scene where she throws around SSB Goku, and why that would be a problem without the later power inconsistency (which means, not using SSG vs her as a benchmark).

Also, Word of God says Goku didn't need to use Blue against the people he scouted so we can't say Gohan is that strong.

[up] That's completely ignoring the point I made. The 'Legendary Super Saiyan' form hasn't been explained or established. It's not even called that in Super. If it's meant to harken back to Broly's form, then we DO know it's not meant to be that powerful as Broly's strength is more in league with Super Saiyan 2. And that's ignoring the writing problems with just giving her this kind of power with minimal development that doesn't match what we know of better established Saiyans.

We have plenty of characters that we compare Kale to, and when we do it just doesn't add up.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#73539: Dec 29th 2017 at 9:49:04 PM

Also, Word of God says Goku didn't need to use Blue against the people he scouted so we can't say Gohan is that strong.

The next episode's "previously on" segment said Gohan showed power that Rivaled Goku's, so Gohan is definitely meant to be that strong.

That's completely ignoring the point I made. The 'Legendary Super Saiyan' form hasn't been explained or established. It's not even called that in Super. If it's meant to harken back to Broly's form, then we DO know it's not meant to be that powerful as Broly's strength is more in league with Super Saiyan 2. And that's ignoring the writing problems with just giving her this kind of power with minimal development that doesn't match what we know of better established Saiyans.

We have plenty of characters that we compare Kale to, and when we do it just doesn't add up.

It's established that it's a brand new form that unleashes gigantic reserves of hidden power, it doesn't really need more than that. And the fact that Broly isn't canon lets them alter the details as much as they want when it comes to how much power it gives you, especially since Broly's real power level is "stronger than you", so being blue level is more in tune with the spirit of the character. Plus the power doesn't make her broken because of the berserk aspect, so I think you're overstating writing problems.

Still not seeing what "doesn't add up".

edited 29th Dec '17 9:49:13 PM by Moth13

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#73540: Dec 29th 2017 at 9:49:29 PM

Toshio is Word of Saint Paul at best, and 17 and Gohan's performance in the two most recent episodes as well as in the spoilers pretty clearly spell out that both of them are only slightly weaker than SSB Goku and Vegeta.

edited 29th Dec '17 9:49:49 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#73541: Dec 29th 2017 at 9:50:31 PM

[up]From what I gather, that's the very issue. They shouldn't just be slightly weaker, they should be significantly weaker.

The fact that they aren't is what makes no sense, since neither of them have shown any sort of evidence that they've gained the power of the gods that was very explicitly shown to be far and above what anyone was at during the end of the Buu Saga

edited 29th Dec '17 9:51:45 PM by EpicBleye

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#73542: Dec 29th 2017 at 9:51:45 PM

Oh, they changed how Botamo's invulnerability works.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#73543: Dec 29th 2017 at 9:54:36 PM

Technically, Jaco was only theorizing that Botamo transferred impacts to another dimension. In the manga, it's simply that his body is so rubbery that it absorbs impacts.

[up][up]Neither has Freeza.

edited 29th Dec '17 9:55:26 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#73544: Dec 29th 2017 at 9:56:00 PM

having just watched the episode, we can literally visibly see the force of the attacks being absorbed into another dimension

but i suppose that's too much of a Story Breaker power

[up]That's implying that I like how Frieza's golden form was handled. I don't for the exact same reasons.

edited 29th Dec '17 9:56:41 PM by EpicBleye

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73545: Dec 29th 2017 at 9:56:57 PM

[up][up] Frieza had the potential though.

And trained.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73546: Dec 29th 2017 at 9:57:12 PM

I'm not saying that Super isn't inconsistent as hell, but Toshio's statements are the best we have for how he intends for us to see the characters and he's one of the most prominent writers as well as the one who wrote their recruitment episodes. So his statements definitely make it a lot less definite how strong those two are meant to be.

It's established that it's a brand new form that unleashes gigantic reserves of hidden power, it doesn't really need more than that. And the fact that Broly isn't canon lets them alter the details as much as they want when it comes to how much power it gives you, especially since Broly's real power level is "stronger than you", so being blue level is more in tune with the spirit of the character. Plus the power doesn't make her broken because of the berserk aspect, so I think you're overstating writing problems.

Still not seeing what "doesn't add up".

It really does need more than that, because it's incredibly lazy to introduce that kind of power without an appropriate amount of build up or justification. And you're using out of universe reasons for in-universe inconsistencies, which does nothing to excuse the level of writing. Also, the berserk aspect was never actually used against her, so it's not much of a balancing factor.

What doesn't add up is that despite having several characters comparable to her position, she's way stronger than them without explanation as to why. It's not consistent with the rest of the cast, and you're acting like something not being established gives it free reign to go as crazy as they want without justifying it. That's just plain bad writing.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#73547: Dec 29th 2017 at 9:58:35 PM

Also, so much for the arena being indestructible. Thing was torn apart in seconds.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73548: Dec 29th 2017 at 9:59:56 PM

Yeah I don't see the point in introducing another metal to be even harder than Katchin and then have it be weak af

how weak must Katchin be?

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#73550: Dec 29th 2017 at 10:02:37 PM

The one time Katchin was used, it broke the thing it was used against.

Katchin has a far better record than its supposedly stronger brother.

One Strip! One Strip!

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