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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#7326: Jul 15th 2014 at 1:09:28 PM

It's an incredibly easy fact to forget. He only ever saved the day by defeating the villain himself in the original Dragonball, and the movies.

People also like to give the Spirit Bomb crap for being the ultimate plot-resolving solution that wins every battle, forgetting that - movies aside - the Spirit Bomb has only ever successfully defeated the villain once in the entire history of Dragon Ball. It did a nice chunk of damage to both Vegeta and Frieza, but they both got back up for more and the fight continued.

I honestly can't tell how facetious you are being with that list Tobias. For one thing, Raditz was killed by a higher power level, that's the whole point of the scouter. Piccolo's move raised his power level higher than Raditz's.

The move did, yes. Piccolo was not stronger than Raditz. He had a technique that was powerful enough to kill Raditz, but he, himself, was not powerful enough to do it. Even then, Raditz was able to deflect it; it was only because Goku locked him in a full nelson and took Piccolo's second firing of the attack that it was able to strike the killing blow and win the day.

Skill and technique defeated Raditz, not power.

Goku beat Jeice, Racoome, Ginyu and Berter because he had a higher PL.

Not Ginyu, he didn't. Ginyu defeated Goku through use of a self-inflicted injury followed by the Body Change technique. Superior tactics and a special technique put an end to Goku's curbstomp of the Ginyu Force.

Freeza dominated everyone when he actually tried and increased his PL.

With a power level of over 1,000,000, Frieza couldn't even kill Krillin and his paltry 75,000 power level. Piccolo, Gohan, and Krillin flew Frieza ragged while Dende secretly healed them, dominating his incredible power with tactical superiority and special techniques.

Frieza had to keep increasing his power level against enemies he far outclassed in his first form, because his opponents could do things like energy sensing, the Solar Flare, Goku's clever dual Kamehameha distraction, Dende's healing, etc. Even at the very end of the fight, 100% Full Power Frieza versus Super Saiyan Goku, it wasn't a powerful attack by Goku that defeated Frieza, it was swift maneuvering that resulted in cutting him in half with his own kienzans; turning his own power against himself and using his own strength to overcome him, a classic martial artist maneuver.

Cell went and got a higher PL than Kamiccolo and the Androidsso he could pretty much oneshot them.

Super Vegeta and Trunks went and got a higher PL than Semi-Perfect Cell and utterly trounced him.

Cell didn't do a lot of oneshotting either. The only reason he was able to reach Android 18 is through psychological manipulation of Vegeta. It was his tactics, not his strength, that allowed him to attain his Perfect Form. Super Vegeta and Trunks's training was completely fruitless; they accomplished nothing due to the much-weaker Cell turning Vegeta's psychological weaknesses against them. Once again, tactics prevail against a physically superior enemy.

Perfect Cell's power level was immeasurably higher than everyone's except SSJ 2 Gohan's and he was only ever hurt because he played around.

Yes, despite his impressive power, Perfect Cell was undone by the same psychological weakness that defeated Super Vegeta; even then, that wasn't the end of the fight. His attempt to self-destruct and take the Earth with him was unwraveled by Goku's new Instant Transmission technique, and he returned with a fresh new zenkai as Super Perfect Cell, whose power even surpassed Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Even with Goku helping him in the Beam Struggle, the most Gohan could accomplish was to match Cell; it wasn't until Vegeta jumped into the mix and attacked Cell, pulling his attention away from Gohan, that Cell was overcome and destroyed. Once again, battle tactics overcame a physically superior foe.

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FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7327: Jul 15th 2014 at 2:53:04 PM

Another Dragon Ball Xenoverse interview.

The following was confirmed in the interview:

  • The game has been in development for over two and half years
  • There will be Ki charging
  • There would indeed be more than just 1v1, but they can't specify how far it'll go.
  • The story mode isn't an Open World like B3.
  • There would be more than just DBZ characters on the roster, but could not specify on the number nor the series.
  • The game would have a "robust" roster.

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#7328: Jul 15th 2014 at 4:11:06 PM

While that guy in the "why goku is stronger" video was wrong on a few counts, he did make one extremely good point: Goku is more open to learning from different sources. I used to be one of those guys that went "VEGETA TRAINS HARDER THAN EVERYONE! HE SHOULD BE THE STRONGEST DAMMIT!" (and I still am on some level) but I realized that at some point that their fundamentally different personalities will ensure that Vegeta never learns all that Goku does...

But that's only true before the end of the Buu Saga. wink

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Mrsunshinesprinkles Forever Gorgeous from Somewhere, crying Since: Jan, 2012
Forever Gorgeous
#7329: Jul 15th 2014 at 4:19:06 PM

Ignoooooore

edited 15th Jul '14 4:20:26 PM by Mrsunshinesprinkles

"Curry killed the pussy hoping that I could kill the hate in you" - Curry, D. "TABOO | TA13OO." TA13OO, PH, 2018
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#7330: Jul 15th 2014 at 7:07:00 PM

2 and half years!? Damn, Dimps holds a mighty secret they can. I wonder if Budokai's item customization will be back for this game.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7331: Jul 16th 2014 at 7:34:40 PM

Has anybody ever wondered why exactly the DBZ Movies are so popular so as they even rival the anime series itself? I mean, a ton of anime, especially big name shounen, have these stupid anime original movies but nobody ever talks about the villains in the Naruto or One Piece movies. They certainly got nothing on Broly or Cooler who are as famous as any of the "real villains."

I guess it could simply be a side-effect of DBZ Mania. Pokemon's first couple movies are pretty well known after all.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#7332: Jul 16th 2014 at 9:23:30 PM

Can't really say.

Though not every movie villain is that well known. Yeah, Garlic Junior got a filler arc in the anime (that really shouldn't fit at all), Coola is tied to a villain from the series, and Broly is wanked to high heaven, but you don't hear anybody talking about Doctor Wheelo now do you?

On a different note, I was watching the Videl vs Spopovitch fight, and some things occurred to me:

1) Mr. Satan opting not to watch the fight is kinda a dick move, but then you remember that he fought Spopovitch before, and made the guy look like a joke; after that you remember that Gohan said Videl is stronger than her dad, and that Satan probably knows this (hence why she's never fought him, as part of his avoid people stronger than me strategy), and then finally you remember who trained her. It's hardly a surprise he thought there was no way she could lose to a guy he beat with ease, when he taught her everything she knows, and she a better fighter than he is.

2) Vegeta went from completely missing the fact that Trunks was stronger than him back in the Cell series to noticing that Spopovitch was much stronger than he looked without even seriously trying (he didn't even care about the fight). And he noticed after Goku, but before Krillin, who had noticed the greater power of the aforementioned Trunks before Vegeta did seven years earlier. His ability to sense Chi had greatly improved at that point it seems.

edited 16th Jul '14 9:23:44 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
DoctorDiabolical So pure. Since: Mar, 2010
So pure.
#7333: Jul 16th 2014 at 9:25:52 PM

DBZ is a fairly simplistic franchise, and canon introduces new elements all the time. When a movie introduces something new to DBZ, it's usually not that jarring. They can just say "a new bad guy popped up" or "some lackeys of an old/current bad guy have returned," because the same thing happened all the time in the series. And if it feels like something that could happen in the 'verse, something that meshes with the series' tone, it's easier for fans to buy into and enjoy it as they do with the canon material.

It also helps that many movie characters look like something Toriyama would draw.

The Naruto canon, by comparison, seems fairly insulated. The series centers around a rather specific set of villains and goals. When a new villain or plot element is thrown into the Naruto-world for the sake of a movie plot, my kneejerk reaction is "why wouldn't this have been mentioned in canon? Oh right... because it would have seemed to come out of nowhere." Also, the Naruto film villains just look off when compared to canon, and typically seem to have powers (ranging from the overpowered to the generic) that would emerge from fanfiction, rather than blending in naturally with the 'verse.

edited 16th Jul '14 9:30:30 PM by DoctorDiabolical

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#7334: Jul 16th 2014 at 9:29:20 PM

Yeah, you can throw just about anything at Z fighters and it will fit. Monsters, demons, aliens, robots, they fought it all.

Also, like 3/4 movie talks were always about Broly because many people love to wank him (looking at you Salagir) and that generates discussion (since 3/4 of it are powerlevel debates).

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#7335: Jul 16th 2014 at 9:32:40 PM

Well it was a Fantasy Kitchen Sink Gag Series (that started taking itself a little too seriously for a bit), so just about anything fitting in make sense.

One Strip! One Strip!
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#7336: Jul 16th 2014 at 10:07:40 PM

[up][up]

Broly has considerably more leeway when it comes to wanking - being in-universe "wanked" as a terrifying Super Saiyan, when the current "Super Saiyan" was already stronger than Frieza. No, Broly was the Super Saiyan of Super Saiyans.

But then, he was beaten when the Z-Warriors were much weaker. Sure. But then he came back, and he gave an older Gohan a challenge. To jump from clobbering Super Saiyans to clobbering a Super Saiyan 2? Holy sh't. In Salagir's depiction, Broly lived past even that, and who knows how many battles it would take for Broly to Zenkai up to the level of a Super Saiyan 3.

That said, Salagir did not make this a believable, gradual process.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#7337: Jul 16th 2014 at 10:11:35 PM

Broly entire concept is rather stupid.

"Goku you became a Super Sayian. But not the legendary Super Sayian. That's somehow different. You are a rumored Super Sayian at best."

Also, wasn't teenage Gohan actually weaker than when he was a kid?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#7338: Jul 16th 2014 at 10:17:34 PM

Broly is much beloved by the fanbase for closing up a plot hole that never actually existed. The plot hole is that Vegeta stated a Super Saiyan appears once every thousand years, and then Goku became that legendary Super Saiyan, and the legend was fulfilled. And then Trunks was also the legendary Super Saiyan and the legend was confused. And then VEGETA became the legendary Super Saiyan and suddenly everyone's a Super Saiyan and the entire legend is ridiculous because THERE SHOULD ONLY BE ONE.

The way Broly seals up that plot hole is by establishing the idea that the Super Saiyans in the cast aren't THE Super Saiyan. The legend was speaking of something far greater than them, and that something is Broly. He is THE ONE AND ONLY Legendary Super Saiyan. Plot hole fixed.

The reason this plot hole never actually existed is because Vegeta did not say that a Super Saiyan appears once every thousand years. He said the last time one happened was a thousand years ago. He's not speaking of a millennial prophecy, he's just reciting history.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7339: Jul 16th 2014 at 10:27:35 PM

The anime established that the "Super Saiyan of Legend" went insane with power. He was nothing more and nothing less than a primal beast of destruction and chaos. Basically Wit H Great Power Comes Great Insanity personified.

Broly fits that bill exactly.

[up][up] SSJ 2 Teen/Adult Gohan is indeed weaker than his Cell Games self.

edited 16th Jul '14 10:29:55 PM by Nikkolas

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7340: Jul 17th 2014 at 3:40:24 AM

Broly power in-universe is ridiculous and the DBZ American fanbase wank his power level to insane degrees. *Cough*Dragon Ball Multiverse*Cough* Considering how Broly himself said that his power seems to continue to rise to the point where it overflows and he releases ki blasts spontaneously to make sure his body doesn't implode itself from the over surge of power, I must ask... is Broly truly a galaxy buster and beyond? tongue

edited 17th Jul '14 3:40:33 AM by FireShadow

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#7341: Jul 17th 2014 at 3:49:09 AM

So, wait, hang on. Is the only canonical evidence for "Broly's power level never stops growing" just that one quote??

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#7342: Jul 17th 2014 at 4:24:36 AM

Yes. And even then, that quote doesn't mean that at all. It's just Broli fans being Broli fans (read: being dumb).

I 100% - no, 1000% - agree that Broli's main thing is filling a plot hole that didn't need filling. I always disliked how his presence implied the others weren't the real Super Saiyans and it's this new mysterious guy who oh Broli your muscles are soooo big /swoon

What was the whole point of this Vegeta not being in the top ten of Boo arc fighters again? The only way he wouldn't be is if you're counting the same character multiple times (like with Evil Boo and his absorptions) which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Aaand I'm not seeing what it means if he is or isn't.

edited 17th Jul '14 4:24:52 AM by Saiga

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#7343: Jul 17th 2014 at 4:32:07 AM

Of course, that doesn't mean his power level is infinite or anything. He has to let the energy out. He can't keep it in and get stronger and stronger.

Gohan was able to knock him back a little in Super Saiyan 2, but not actually, y'know, beat him. He's usually beaten by team-ups. Goku, Piccolo, Gohan, Trunks, Vegeta the first time. Goku, Gohan, Goten and Trunks the second time.

Then there was the clone.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#7345: Jul 17th 2014 at 4:35:29 AM

Eh, lazy. C'mon, DBH! Gimme the good shit! Gimme that outta left field, Baby Janemba shit!

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Mrsunshinesprinkles Forever Gorgeous from Somewhere, crying Since: Jan, 2012
Forever Gorgeous
#7346: Jul 17th 2014 at 4:43:27 AM

We might as well slap a Majin to that, for added holy shitness factor.

Maybe add a Kaioken to that, because why not. SS 4 Majin Broly, with added Kaioken!

Or maybe screw SS 4, and go all out, with Potential Unlocked Broly! Who can still use Super Saiyan 4, because Why Not! Potential Unlocked Majin SSJ 4 Broly using Kaioken!

...Hey, we've seen a lot of crazier stuff from DBH

edited 17th Jul '14 4:47:13 AM by Mrsunshinesprinkles

"Curry killed the pussy hoping that I could kill the hate in you" - Curry, D. "TABOO | TA13OO." TA13OO, PH, 2018
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7347: Jul 17th 2014 at 4:47:45 AM

I just want a Super Saiyan Pan.

It's not going to happen is it?

[up][up][up][up] He was killed by being pushed into the goddam Sun by an FTL Son family Kamehameha.

Beat that shit.

Also I think the whole "his power level just keeps rising" was confirmed in the Daizenshuu that explained the various SSJ forms....

[up][up][up][up][up] The point was just to show Vegeta was no rival to Goku by this point.

edited 17th Jul '14 4:48:35 AM by Nikkolas

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7348: Jul 17th 2014 at 4:48:38 AM

[up]x5 We must never speak of Broly's "clone". Broly main weakness is now water? And Krillin of all people greatly contributed to killing him for good? Now you know Broly was going through a severe case of Badass Decay. Nothing against Krillin, but damn, it's really put into perspective what the Japanese fanbase think of Broly in comparison to the American fanbase. In Japan he's essentially a meme that is mocked repeatedly, yet in America, his power level is maximum. I mean he's essentially seen as the anime version of Chuck Norris... fucking invincible.

edited 17th Jul '14 4:49:14 AM by FireShadow

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#7349: Jul 17th 2014 at 4:50:22 AM

[up][up] It doesn't show that at all though, the only thing separating them is a single transformation.

A single inefficient transformation.

Oh, and no on the Daizenshuu thing. There is nothing but that line in Movie 8, and fan misinterpretations of that.

edited 17th Jul '14 4:51:13 AM by Saiga

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7350: Jul 17th 2014 at 4:51:08 AM

Maybe it's because we got Pantera. The music in the Japanese version wasn't nearly as good.


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