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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#73376: Dec 28th 2017 at 5:08:10 PM

If El Grande Padre actually tried to exert any authority over him, he'd probably just be erased like anyone else.

edited 28th Dec '17 5:14:37 PM by LSBK

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#73377: Dec 28th 2017 at 5:12:49 PM

Its all about subtlety my friend.

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#73378: Dec 28th 2017 at 5:16:11 PM

Everyone can tell that El Grande Padre is waiting to unveil his true, super form: El Gran Sacerdote.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73379: Dec 28th 2017 at 5:17:58 PM

[up] What does Sacerdote mean?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#73380: Dec 28th 2017 at 5:19:30 PM

Zen-Oh reminds me a lot of an old Twilight Zone episode where a child has incredible psychic powers. It's terrifying because he can do whatever he wants because disciplining him meant being turned into a jack in the box.

So the episode focuses on this kid that's ruining the town because he always wants it to be sunny so he can play (meaning all the greenery is dying because no rain/snow in years) and everyone has to be afraid of making him unhappy because it will lead to your death.

The episode ends with the main character aiming to kill the kid by bashing him over the head with something because this kid is too dangerous. But he gets turned into a jack in the box because the kid noticed a moment too soon.

But yeah. Zen-Oh is terrifying. I genuinely wonder how they're going to handle him.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73381: Dec 28th 2017 at 5:19:37 PM

I believe it's a higher rank in the church?

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#73382: Dec 28th 2017 at 5:19:44 PM

[up][up][up]Priest.

edited 28th Dec '17 5:20:26 PM by MightyMatilda

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
felipelight Teacher from Undisclosed Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Teacher
#73383: Dec 28th 2017 at 5:39:35 PM

Padre es sacerdote es básicamente lo mismo

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#73384: Dec 28th 2017 at 5:41:08 PM

[up]...Dammit, Wiktionary lied to me.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#73385: Dec 28th 2017 at 5:41:48 PM

Having no upper limits is a problem.

But then it's not creating a ridiculously large plot hole. It just demands a more considerate narrative. Sloppy or not, Super hasn't made the Mafuba any better or worse by removing its penalty.

The container weakness being exploitable makes it not a "wondrous, fix-all move." The Mafuba isn't a practical option when there's more than one tough opponent to deal with. Even when it's just one-on-one, we've seen it countered by far less experienced users. I like that a lot more than a No Sell because "my power level is higher than yours."

I'm satisfied with how the Mafuba was used in this arc, despite it failing, despite it being "upgraded with no penalty." Super's consistent inconsistency is annoying, yes, but in this case It's only a slightly more annoying a retcon than the Potara earrings.

edited 28th Dec '17 5:51:14 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#73386: Dec 28th 2017 at 5:45:12 PM

I mean, how often is there more than one tough opponent to face though? That technically a villain could have an ally interfere doesn't really matter much when that almost never happens. Certainly not in the situations where something like the Mafuba would be of use to say, Goku.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73387: Dec 28th 2017 at 5:48:13 PM

The container isn't enough of a weakness, because people still need to know how it works to counter it and on their own we've seen them be helpless to do so anyway.

And even if it may not work, that doesnt explain why they dont try it on everyone since the risk is non-existant. Which leads to Roshi spamming the move.

Giving it a limit doesn't create a plot hole. But giving it no limits and no reason to avoid using it DOES make a plot hole in not using it all the time.

Also, even if they have an ally, that ally still needs to free them and they have to do it without support from the sealed person. So they're suddenly down 1 member against the mafuba user and allies. That is always better than trying to take 2 or more on at once.

And you could also just seal their allies as well. The no limits, non-lethal mafuba ie literally ALWAYS the best strategy. Nothing else is ever a good idea.

edited 28th Dec '17 5:52:52 PM by Saiga

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73389: Dec 28th 2017 at 5:52:19 PM

Yes.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#73390: Dec 28th 2017 at 5:53:18 PM

edit: Just a moment.

[down] I'm going to be away from keyboard for a bit.

edited 28th Dec '17 6:00:49 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73391: Dec 28th 2017 at 5:57:11 PM

You didn't give any examples of how it could avoid being a story beaker power or counter the issues i raised, though

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#73392: Dec 28th 2017 at 5:59:59 PM

It's like the Destructo Disc: while other chi blasts can wear an opponent down, the Double-Dee is either a 1HKO or it does literally nothing. Same with the Containment Wave.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73394: Dec 28th 2017 at 6:03:05 PM

You could always get a glancing blow or something. But the Mienzan is very similar to Never Bring a Knife to a Fist Fight

MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#73395: Dec 28th 2017 at 6:03:31 PM

[up]

Isn't that more because if the Destructo Disk works 100% then there would be no fight. Getting cut in half would outright kill half of the mortal enemies we've seen in Dragonball Z outright.

edited 28th Dec '17 6:04:14 PM by MyssaRei

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73396: Dec 28th 2017 at 6:11:21 PM

The weaknesses with the Mafuba generally revolve around:

  1. it takes a huge toll on the body's stamina, even if it doesn't kill you any more
  2. all it takes is for the pot to be broken and boom, they're back in business
  3. you can easily miss with the beam - or even hit an ally - which happened in this very arc no less! (or simply the wrong enemy, like with Drum in the anime).
  4. if the opponent is sufficiently intelligent and knowledgable about the power they can just reverse it, as Piccolo Jr. did in the 23rd Budokai.

So the Mafuba requires far greater prep time and can potentially get screwed up very easily. It's a high risk high reward gambit. What makes it distinctive is that it's a power that puts emphasis on "is the opponent familiar with it", "does the opponent and/or you have any backup", and "how intelligent is the opponent" rather than "what is their power level", which is very very rare for a DB power. (see also, for example, the Solar Flare and Ginyu's CHAAAAANGE power). I wouldn't want to see it spammed every arc ofc but I would like to see moves that can't be shrugged off by power level crop up more often.

But it does still have massive disadvantages. There's a reason it's only solidly worked once, I believe.

edited 28th Dec '17 6:18:19 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73397: Dec 28th 2017 at 6:29:21 PM

Frost being able to instantly devise a counter is ridiculous, and even then he was lucky that Roshi botched the technique beforehand or he would have just been defeated.

Roshi only missed the first time he used it because it was the first time he used it. Tenshinhan showed you can easily train the accuracy, so that's not a mark against it.

If the Mafuba was something that we saw characters believably counter without prior knowledge, it'd be a balanced move. But as it is, most failures have been bad luck on the user's part, or specifically prepared counters. That's not a good technique to attach no limits to.

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#73398: Dec 28th 2017 at 6:35:04 PM

Perhaps it would be better if it was retconned into a Special Beam Cannon dealio: the projectile is so slow it only works when the enemy is already hampered anyway.

Or maybe that strong enemies can break out of the container, but doing is always incredibly draining.

Or maybe just have Mai show up out of nowhere an shoot the container.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73399: Dec 28th 2017 at 6:51:41 PM

Well, if you can miss even if you have good aim the opponent might dodge. Or have an ally break the pot. Or fire a ki blast into the air on a roundabout trip so it hits the pot after you've been sealed.

You can't say "it has no limits" because it's failed every time it's been used apart from Mutaito himself.

(I do think it does suffer a bit from that Bleach Abridged joke; since it's a one-and-done move, it's almost certainly never going to work on anyone important).

edited 28th Dec '17 6:57:49 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#73400: Dec 28th 2017 at 7:04:27 PM

Yeah, just do what Goku did when Hit killed him.


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