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MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#73301: Dec 28th 2017 at 10:55:31 AM

I once said that an inanimate pebble would make a better teammate than Frieza, but it seems the events in the tournament have proven me wrong.

So far.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
TwistedGear Don't know how to pilot this thing Since: Jun, 2014
Don't know how to pilot this thing
#73302: Dec 28th 2017 at 11:06:17 AM

Part of me wishes Goku and the others knew what sort of stuff Xeno would allow, their tenth member could have been a robot that dispenses senzu beans, I'm sure Bulma could have built that in the time they had. But yeah, I was not expecting to enjoy Frieza in this arc as much as I have been.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#73303: Dec 28th 2017 at 11:31:05 AM

I didn't need two new saiyans who will probably hog all the spotlight.

Poor Cabba.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#73304: Dec 28th 2017 at 11:50:52 AM

No, in that situation Yamcha would have been a worse choice because we'd lose a bunch of cool moments for a quick gag.

Heh. That's true. Beyond his weakness, I'm absolutely positive that if Toriyama had put Yamcha in, he'd have had him get taken out as soon as possible because (outside of the fight with the invisible man), that's what he always does. He literally does not know how to use Yamcha for anything but getting defeated first.

So yeah, in that regards, Roshi is a better choice as Toriyama wouldn't just take the easy way out as he always does.

That being said, we'll have to see how Roshi fairs in the manga compared to the anime first before I assume anything, as the anime is more willing to stretch credibility for what the weaker characters are capable of, even if I enjoyed both Krillin and Roshi's spotlight.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73305: Dec 28th 2017 at 12:27:52 PM

Roshi's mafuba shouldn't let him bunch that far above his weight unless you want to punch ridiculously large holes in the plot just to make him look good. His is passed, he had a nice way of passing the torch, and going against that just to shallowly pander to certain fans is something I can do without.

Rob's list is logical, but I could also buy Freeza and 17 being dropped in place of Kuririn and Ten. Because Freeza/17 wouldn't automatically be in the table for picks - 17 doesn't know the cast very well and may not have been thought of by Goku, Freeza is dead and untrustworthy so it makes sense not to consider him. Then Kuririn and Ten make it in by virtue of simply being the 9th and 10th strongest around.

[up] It's not that Toriyama doesn't know how to pander to Yamcha. That's got to be the easiest thing to write. It's that he doesn't feel the need, which already makes Yamcha a better choice over Roshi.

edited 28th Dec '17 12:29:56 PM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#73306: Dec 28th 2017 at 12:30:39 PM

Fair enough. In a situation where they didn't grab the Idiot Ball and bring back Frieza, and they did decide that Goten and Past Trunks were too risky, Tien and Krillin would be good choices, even if only be virtue of having tournament experience, and as Saiga said, being the next strongest guys around.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#73307: Dec 28th 2017 at 12:31:07 PM

No, in that situation Yamcha would have been a worse choice because we'd lose a bunch of cool moments for a quick gag.

I mean, by that logic you could just take Roshi out, put Yamcha in, and spread Roshi's time around to Yamcha, Krillin, and Tien. That's "better" because you get more "cool moments" for more characters over and even nominally makes a bit more sense, which for Super is just a plus, clearly.

edited 28th Dec '17 12:34:40 PM by LSBK

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73308: Dec 28th 2017 at 12:31:53 PM

You're never going to let how they've been using Roshi go huh.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73309: Dec 28th 2017 at 12:32:45 PM

No, no. I only meant Freeza and 17 dropped from your list.

There is no world in which dropping Goten and Trunks for the humans is anything but an immensely idiotic decision.

[up] I'm not the one bringing it up, and it's relevant to the topic at hand in determining who are good choices for the TOP and why

edited 28th Dec '17 12:34:13 PM by Saiga

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#73310: Dec 28th 2017 at 12:34:59 PM

Heh. That's true. Beyond his weakness, I'm absolutely positive that if Toriyama had put Yamcha in, he'd have had him get taken out as soon as possible because (outside of the fight with the invisible man), that's what he always does. He literally does not know how to use Yamcha for anything but getting defeated first.

Which is a shame, because Yamcha actually has a pretty neat design and moveset. The Wolf Fang Fist is, IMO, one of the coolest-looking special moves in the series, and I would've liked to see it used more- either by Yamcha himself, or by Goku since borrowing moves from other fighters is kind of his thing.

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73311: Dec 28th 2017 at 12:38:45 PM

[up][up] I was speaking more on how vehement you've been about it when it's brought up.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#73312: Dec 28th 2017 at 12:43:00 PM

[up][up][up]

Do you trust them to not mess up? I mean, these are the guys who thought purposely dragging out the battle with Buu was a good idea.

That and the fact that, just as I expect Toriyama to screw over Yamcha because that's what he always does with him, I expect him to have Gotenks screw himself over due to his ego...at least unless he's matured a bit, which, judging by the portrayal of Goten and Trunks in Super, is unlikely.

In terms of power, they'd be very useful, but Gotenks' strongest form would only last minutes, and then they'd lose it, and they don't have the strategic sense of mind to conserve stamina either. More to the point, I don't think they are mature enough to full grasp the stakes, since they were screwing around even after Goten saw his mom get murdered.

So no, no Goten and Trunks as far as I'm concerned. Too much of a liability.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#73313: Dec 28th 2017 at 12:44:56 PM

Going on about Goten and Trunks' mature still seems like a pretty weak excuse to me. Something that would make sense in some other series, but just doesn't when looking at how Dragon Ball has tended to handle situations like these.

edited 28th Dec '17 12:45:18 PM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#73314: Dec 28th 2017 at 12:49:11 PM

Well, I admit that they'd probably be whatever the plot wants them to be. I did put them on the original list.

I just don't know if I fully trust the writer to have them fight smart, and their best move is one that not only burns stamina, but then ultimately leaves them unable to use it for at least an hour.

One Strip! One Strip!
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#73315: Dec 28th 2017 at 12:49:55 PM

Do you trust them to not mess up? I mean, these are the guys who thought purposely dragging out the battle with Buu was a good idea.

To me it's all relative. I mean, if you think about it, Goku ended up pulling all the stunts he said Goten and Trunks would do. tongue

I agree with LSBK, it was more just a convenient way of writing them out of the arc just like with the Resurrection F arc.

edited 28th Dec '17 12:50:58 PM by Lionheart0

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#73316: Dec 28th 2017 at 12:51:55 PM

...

I feel like I'm gonna have to change my catch phrase to fair enough considering how often I use it.

Ok. They stay. Maybe Future Trunks (if he's there) could keep them in check.

One Strip! One Strip!
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#73317: Dec 28th 2017 at 12:52:24 PM

Don't mean to dogpile, I was just throwing in my two cents lol

felipelight Teacher from Undisclosed Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Teacher
#73318: Dec 28th 2017 at 12:53:09 PM

That's ridiculous. Every saiyan and Freeza have dragged out easily winnable fights before and DURING this very tournament. Singling out the kids for that is just dumb

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#73319: Dec 28th 2017 at 12:57:52 PM

More spoilers for 123. Looks like Toppo takes 17 out when 17 tries to pull a Taking You with Me maneuver and Gohan doesn't follow through. Curious/worried about the talk of a "full power Super Saiyan Blue", since the last time the anime writers took something from the manga (SSG), it was badly done and poorly implemented. I like what the anime's doing, I don't want the anime writers to be forced to include any of the manga's garbage just because they have a sense of obligation/Toyotaro demanded it.

TwistedGear Don't know how to pilot this thing Since: Jun, 2014
Don't know how to pilot this thing
#73320: Dec 28th 2017 at 1:10:54 PM

We also have to consider that Goten and Trunks might break down under pressure. Nevermind the opponents might be needlessly cruel to them and mess them up for the rest of their lives. Pretty sure none of the other universes brought kids into this fight either because no matter how you try to argue about their power, bringing kids to a fight for the survival of the entire universe is idiotic (unless they're the main character because then they'd be improbably good in that situation).

Nevermind Gotenks as a character gets old fast.

I'll admit I had problems with the roster at first (Both Frieza and Buu seemed like horrible picks to me, and Roshi and Tein didn't seem like the best of ideas to me either.) But their contributions to this arc have made me extremely satisfied with it. The only swap I could see making any change for the better would be replacing Tien with Future Trunks.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#73321: Dec 28th 2017 at 1:14:47 PM

Why is Freeza even in this arc? He just stands around and acts insufferable.

MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#73322: Dec 28th 2017 at 1:20:30 PM

[up]

That's probably it. That, and to show someone having a much more sinister motivation aside from the obvious "save your universe and live!'. He wants to usurp Zen'o after all.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73323: Dec 28th 2017 at 1:26:23 PM

[up][up][up][up] I wouldn't call the manga garbage just because he's trying to maintain a sense of consistency. Like, It's not what I care about but I can at least respect trying to keep everything in line, and if SSB is SSG +SSJ then surely the higher grades of SSJ are the way to go.

edited 28th Dec '17 1:26:36 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
felipelight Teacher from Undisclosed Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Teacher
#73324: Dec 28th 2017 at 1:26:36 PM

In he end the kids would have been fodderized anyway, so I'm not really complaining. These final five seem reasonable to me

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#73325: Dec 28th 2017 at 1:32:39 PM

That they would have lost eventually is not the same thing as being fodder.

That this is probably going to come down to a one on one doesn't make everyone else pointless.

edited 28th Dec '17 1:34:22 PM by LSBK


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