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BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#7301: Jul 14th 2014 at 6:51:20 PM

You didn't actually watch the video, and you're criticizing its existence and what it has to say?

There's a reason why the video has that many likes.

edited 14th Jul '14 6:51:41 PM by BaconManiac5000

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7302: Jul 14th 2014 at 7:00:40 PM

Okay, I'm watching the video now and I've already spotted a problem. He asserts that Vegeta is naturally stronger than Goku.

Vegeta on the other hand flat-out contradicts this, at least in the dub. He says Goku has been born with potential far greater than his own. it's one of the reasons he went Majin. It's during his speech to Goku wheN Goku says they are evenly matched.

But, looking for that quote, I have found dozens of topics on the first page of Google about people asserting Vegeta was stronger than Goku......... I guess the ideo was necessary in a way....sadly.

EDIT: Found the exchange at last:

Goku: "I'm amazed Vegeta. These last seven years in Other World, I've been through the most intense training sessions, but we're still completely even. I guess this whole time you've been pushing yourself even harder than I have."

Majin Vegeta: "That may be true. I've pushed myself to the edge of my limits & beyond, but you've been born with a natural talent far beyond my own. No amount of training could have closed the gap between us!"

edited 14th Jul '14 7:07:12 PM by Nikkolas

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#7303: Jul 14th 2014 at 7:09:51 PM

Vegeta may have said that Goku was naturally stronger, but he was wrong.

I'll tell you why (although I think the video tells you why): Ginyu.

When Ginyu took over Goku's body, he assumed Goku was naturally incredibly strong. This turned out to be incorrect. Goku's body was, in fact, much weaker than Ginyu's old body. Goku just knew a lot of techniques to compensate for that. However Vegeta was a lot stronger than Goku-Ginyu and beat him easily. See here. And here.

Vegeta was born stronger than Goku and he was stronger when they first met (the only reason Goku beat him in the Beam-O-War is because of the Kaioken). But Goku trained and learned techniques to make himself stronger. Vegeta did too, but not nearly as much. Once Goku had passed him up, Vegeta didn't do enough to counter it.

edited 14th Jul '14 7:38:42 PM by BaconManiac5000

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#7304: Jul 14th 2014 at 10:21:15 PM

So... this is a thing.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#7305: Jul 14th 2014 at 10:22:08 PM

"Introducing Super-Bills! Like Bills, but Orange! He's even MORE invincible! Look at how even MORE inconsequential I make the entirety of my work look!"

My various fanfics.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#7306: Jul 14th 2014 at 10:22:27 PM

.....

Well, I guess Dragon Ball might be coming back in style.

One Strip! One Strip!
EndlessSea LEGENDARY GALE from oh no you don't Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
LEGENDARY GALE
#7307: Jul 15th 2014 at 12:56:36 AM

I'm still debating whether or not I want to get my hopes up. :| I would've thought Toriyama would've just wanted to move on from the series by now, all things considered...

but HOW?
Mrsunshinesprinkles Forever Gorgeous from Somewhere, crying Since: Jan, 2012
Forever Gorgeous
#7308: Jul 15th 2014 at 1:13:36 AM

I guess Battle of the Gods renewed Toryiama's wallet interest in DB?

"Curry killed the pussy hoping that I could kill the hate in you" - Curry, D. "TABOO | TA13OO." TA13OO, PH, 2018
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#7309: Jul 15th 2014 at 1:16:04 AM

Hmm, if this movie was supposed to take place in the main series, I wonder where it'd fit in the timeline.

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#7310: Jul 15th 2014 at 1:44:54 AM

:-|

What's with all the negativity? Toriyama is writing this from scratch as opposed to reworking some guy's script. What kind of fan doesn't want new animation? (Hell, i fuggen hate Broly and Bardock is overexposed as shit, but I would not object to new movies featuring them, even if not my cup of tea.)

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
mrsunshinesprinkles Forever Gorgeous from Somewhere, crying Since: Jan, 2012
Forever Gorgeous
#7311: Jul 15th 2014 at 1:49:24 AM

I kid. Truth be told, I'm pretty optimistic about the film. A rewrite of a story Toriyama wasn't able to tell long ago sounds pretty cool.

edited 15th Jul '14 1:50:55 AM by mrsunshinesprinkles

"Curry killed the pussy hoping that I could kill the hate in you" - Curry, D. "TABOO | TA13OO." TA13OO, PH, 2018
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#7312: Jul 15th 2014 at 3:34:51 AM

That reads like an Onion article.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#7313: Jul 15th 2014 at 3:42:55 AM

Prepare for Super Sayian God 2 everyone.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7314: Jul 15th 2014 at 4:48:59 AM

Nah, were gonna see all those other universes Beerus was talkin about.

Gotta say though, I'm pretty excited!

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#7315: Jul 15th 2014 at 4:53:46 AM

Unless Toriyama's lying that would be incredibly unlikely since this is supposed to be something he was going to include during the manga's original serialisation - and Super Saiyan God / The Gods of Destruction weren't his ideas. I doubt it will continue from Battle of Gods.

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#7316: Jul 15th 2014 at 5:04:56 AM

he's not lying.he's just being incredibly forgetful as usual. tongue

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7317: Jul 15th 2014 at 7:43:07 AM

Updated info about the 2015 DBZ movie from our good friends at Kanzenshuu

The fact this movie is entirely based on something Toriyama wanted to include in the manga originally has me incredibly intrigued.

All aboard the hype train! grin

edited 15th Jul '14 7:43:28 AM by FireShadow

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#7318: Jul 15th 2014 at 8:08:45 AM

i hope its more comedy inclined.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#7319: Jul 15th 2014 at 9:02:40 AM

Of course Goku could have just ignored Vegeta, teleported to where Babidi was, killed him and Dabura and be back before Vegeta stops ranting at him for running away.

Goku needs to be able to hone in on Babidi's ki signature to reach him with Instant Transmission. Presumably, if he could IT straight into Babidi's chamber, he would have taken Vegeta, Gohan, and the other assembled fighters there right at the start of this and skipped the "Fly halfway across the world to reach the ship and then fight down through Babidi's minions!" steps of the process.

Goku: "I'm amazed Vegeta. These last seven years in Other World, I've been through the most intense training sessions, but we're still completely even. I guess this whole time you've been pushing yourself even harder than I have."

Majin Vegeta: "That may be true. I've pushed myself to the edge of my limits & beyond, but you've been born with a natural talent far beyond my own. No amount of training could have closed the gap between us!"

Vegeta doesn't say Goku's stronger, he says Goku has more talent. Talent isn't about strength, it's in his level of skill. Vegeta is physically superior to Goku and has an easier time reaching higher levels of power than Goku does, but while Vegeta is a sledgehammer, Goku is a martial artist; he can accomplish more with less power by understanding proper application of sufficient force, as opposed to Vegeta's gratuitous application of as much force as possible.

Goku can hit harder, move quicker, and go longer than Vegeta can because he knows how to make the best use of the power he has, and that makes him a more capable fighter than Vegeta.

The fact this movie is entirely based on something Toriyama wanted to include in the manga originally has me incredibly intrigued.

That's not what he said.

"[As with the last movie], I thought up the new story for the next Dragon Ball theatrical movie as though it were a continuation of the manga when it was in serialization. Just the fact that I don’t have to draw anything means I can obsess completely over the smallest bits of dialogue. Well, the truth is that I wasn’t planning on going that far, since it’s pretty exhausting at my age, but I got a little carried away.

This time will of course be a continuation of the previous Battle of Gods, but I’ve deliberately increased the amount of action scenes by a good deal. With regards to the contents, they told me, “Keep it a secret!” like they’re all high-and-mighty, so I can’t touch on it yet, but it should be super-duper interesting!"

edited 15th Jul '14 9:05:35 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7320: Jul 15th 2014 at 9:36:23 AM

I think you guys are overthinking DBZ's painfully simplistic fighting system.

High Power Level = Better. Fighting techniques don't matter.

Ginyu was crippled because, at the time, Goku relied on the Kaioken. Goku never used the Kaoken after the Namek Arc. Hypothetical Ginyu might be crippled if he tried to possess Android Saga Goku because he couldn't manage Super Saiyan but I think we all know Vegeta can do that just as well as Goku can.

Like I already went over, Goku has +1 Super Saiyan on Vegea and therefore is flat-out stronger. That's just how it is and it's extremely obvious.

Freeza is stronger than Ginyu! How do i know this? Freeza has PL of 120,000,000, Ginyu only has 120,000. There's no need to make a big dela about pointing out the obvious. And that's probably the gap between End of Z Goku and Vegeta.

edited 15th Jul '14 9:38:21 AM by Nikkolas

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#7321: Jul 15th 2014 at 10:02:20 AM

High Power Level = Better. Fighting techniques don't matter.

That's basically never been true in the history of Dragon Ball, as characters with a higher power level are frequently overcome through skill, technique, and superior tactics.

  • Raditz - Killed by two characters of substantially lower power.
  • Vegeta - Defeated by a combination of Goku's Spirit Bomb thrown by Krillin and deflected by Gohan, Yajirobe's Sword, and the Goku's clever turnabout of Vegeta's own False Moon technique to activate Gohan's Oozaru form.
  • Captain Ginyu - Defeated by Goku's ultimate technique, Thrown Frog.
  • Frieza - Run about and stalled out through Krillin's Kienzan and Solar Flare, Dende's healing abilities, nearly killed by Piccolo buying time to keep him distracted from Goku's Spirit Bomb, and finally defeated by being bisected with his own attack through clever maneuvering on Goku's part.
  • Dr. Gero - Intimidated into fleeing from a severely weakened Vegeta entirely through showboating.
  • Cell - Desperation attack rendered invalid through Goku's Instant Transmission, killed by Vegeta's surprise attack distracting him from his Beam Struggle against Gohan.
  • Babidi - Killed by Goku persuading Majin Buu not to be a servant anymore.
  • Fat Buu - Defeated by Mr. Satan, of all people, through the most literal use of The Power of Friendship to overcome a villain ever.
  • Super Buu - Defeated by going inside of him and stripping out the fusions he'd concocted upon himself.
  • Pure Buu - Killed by Vegeta buying time for the Spirit Bomb idea Vegeta concocted, empowered through Mr. Satan's glory-hounding tendencies, and driven by Goku re-energized through the Dragon Balls.

The heroes are frequently underdogs in Dragon Ball Z, with the tactic of, "I'm stronger, therefore I win" being utilized more commonly by villains. Vegeta is also fond of trying to simply powerhouse his way through fights by being bigger and meaner than the other guy, and it nearly always ends with a humiliating, bone-breaking, ego-crushing defeat for him.

The heroes prevail when they fight smarter rather than harder.

edited 15th Jul '14 10:03:13 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7322: Jul 15th 2014 at 11:33:07 AM

[up] Wait a minute, are you insinuating that Goku didn't always defeat the main villains on his own without any help in Dragon Ball Z? But... but... the forums have always said otherwise...

YOU LIE!

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#7323: Jul 15th 2014 at 11:35:36 AM

[up][up]

Your assessment of how the villains have been defeated is pretty accurate, but I like this line most of all:

Vegeta is a sledgehammer, Goku is a martial artist

It's been right in front of us the whole time; Goku has trained with Masters all around the world, and even on other worlds. Vegeta trains, but entirely on his own. He's good at getting stronger, but Goku learns from others much more than Vegeta does, and gains actual technique to compliment his power.

I mean, look at how they spent their time in the Room of Time and Spirit / Hyperbolic Time Chamber; Both grew stronger, and both recognized the advantages and flaws of the Ultra Super Saiyan form, but while Vegeta opted to push it as far as possible, without sacrificing too much speed, Goku instead opted to maximize the power of his regular Super Saiyan form in order to bring out the same amount of power with less stress on the body.

Also, Goku actually trained with Gohan and noticed that his son was much more powerful than him, while Vegeta trained by himself, and managed to completely miss that Trunks had surpassed him.

Hammer vs Martial Artist.

[up] It's an incredibly easy fact to forget. He only ever saved the day by defeating the villain himself in the original Dragonball, and the movies.

edited 15th Jul '14 11:36:31 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#7324: Jul 15th 2014 at 11:55:08 AM

You guys are really off mark here. Vegeta himself realized why Goku is stronger than him - Goku's motivation is pure. You'd think this would have no bearing on their physical proves but remember than Ki is as much matter of spirit as it is of the body.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7325: Jul 15th 2014 at 12:02:55 PM

I honestly can't tell how facetious you are being with that list Tobias. For one thing, Raditz was killed by a higher power level, that's the whole point of the scouter. Piccolo's move raised his power level higher than Raditz's.

Goku beat Jeice, Racoome, Ginyu and Berter because he had a higher PL.

Freeza dominated everyone when he actually tried and increased his PL.

Cell went and got a higher PL than Kamiccolo and the Androidsso he could pretty much oneshot them.

Super Vegeta and Trunks went and got a higher PL than Semi-Perfect Cell and utterly trounced him.

Perfect Cell's power level was immeasurably higher than everyone's except SSJ 2 Gohan's and he was only ever hurt because he played around.

It goes on and on like this.

The final ranking of power in DBZ:

Vegito

Super Buuhan

Super Buutenks

Mystic Gohan

SSJ 3 Gotenks

Super Buu

Super Saiyan 3 Goku

Kid Buu

Fat Buu

Vegeta

And Mr. Buu might be stronger than SSJ 2 Vegeta...I'm not sure.

edited 15th Jul '14 12:03:46 PM by Nikkolas


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