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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#73151: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:06:45 PM

He wasn't before; yeah he wasn't perfect, but when he was there, he was there doing his best to take care of Gohan. It's just that...well, now people are so sure he is a bad dad, and even Toriyama himself seems to be taking that attitude toward him.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73152: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:07:47 PM

Nooooo, as bad as Namek is it has a really strong first half. (though I also hate the Freeza fight).

Buu is easily worse.

edited 26th Dec '17 10:08:25 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73153: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:11:19 PM

Namek's first half is one of the strongest in the series.

Both Namek and Boo suffer from sudden gear shifts later in their arcs - Boo arc stemming a decision made too late to bring back Goku, and Namek just bringing Goku in earlier than they could use him in the plot.

RRA is an easy pick for worst plotted arc in the manga.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#73154: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:12:54 PM

For as much as Toei embraces the Yamcha memes now, I think it's kind of funny that there was a time where Yamcha actually got pretty good treatment in the anime.

I mean, when they fought the fake Saiyans in Popo's Hallucination Room, Yamcha was killed last, IIRC.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73155: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:13:51 PM

What?

While I'm not as massive a fan of RRA arc as Fusion, it's great! You really do need to include the Fortuneteller Baba arc at the end though otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Like, there's a constant escalation in danger, you see lots of fun places (Muscle Tower, Pirate Cave, Korrin's Tower, RRA Base) and there are some really fun fights (even if it is very much gag DB). Like, I don't think there's such a thing as "objective" in fiction, but I find it very hard to believe RRA is the worst plotted. Like, execution might not be for everyone, that's okay, but in plot terms it's way too clean and simple to be worse than Buu just repeating itself about four times.

edited 26th Dec '17 10:19:47 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#73156: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:17:24 PM

RRA has a race...so it's fine.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73157: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:20:20 PM

Baba is part of what drags it down tho

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73158: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:22:58 PM

But it gives you the Gohan V Goku fight.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#73159: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:23:02 PM

A mini tournament between the 2 big tournaments, totally unnecessary.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73160: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:38:22 PM

Sometimes I forget the Baba part of the arc isn't even apart of it. The arc already had it's climax, so I have no idea why they shoehorned a tournament at the end of it...

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73161: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:39:21 PM

Well, there hasn't been a climax yet. Goku still needs the last Dragonball and still needs to have the emotional fight/reward/meeting with Grandpa Gohan.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#73162: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:44:22 PM

The fight against Black wasn't a climax?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73163: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:44:48 PM

No he doesn't. The Red Ribbon Army had already been dealt with, so the main conflict of the arc was resolved. All he had to get the Dragon Ball and wish back Bora, but we have to sit through an entire tournament to get to that.

I loved his reunion with Gohan and all, but it really wasn't needed.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73164: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:47:44 PM

That's the main physical conflict in theory but he just breezes through everyone who isn't Taopaipai or Blue through the entire arc until he gets to the tournament.

It's coming to terms with Gohan's death that's the point of the arc - that's why it starts (Goku going after the four star ball.)

edited 26th Dec '17 10:48:04 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#73165: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:54:19 PM

Speaking of Gohan the First, I'm still surprised neither Super nor GT took up the time to have him cameo at least once, to get to meet Goku's family.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#73166: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:55:01 PM

We didn't need the tournament for that...they could've just had Karrot fight Gohand straight up.

edited 26th Dec '17 10:55:45 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73167: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:56:26 PM

That's just thrown in the end and Goku's attitude to his ball doesn't change from it so while nice it really isn't tied to the rest of the arc

He already achieved his goal, Bora is just a loose end and it really shows

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#73168: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:58:29 PM

Yeah, he still just keeps the ball until he stops caring.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#73170: Dec 26th 2017 at 11:20:03 PM

He already is the UFB...so why is it still his show?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#73171: Dec 26th 2017 at 11:22:26 PM

I still don't get what people mean when they say that Dragon Ball is trying to be "subversive". When I think of that word, and what it's usually applied to, Dragon Ball is not it.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#73172: Dec 26th 2017 at 11:58:04 PM

I've been thinking about how to rewrite the Namek arc, let me pitch some ideas.

The Ginyu Force are removed. While fun, they're ultimately pointless padding. Because of this, Freeza can be like 10 times weaker than in canon, Power Level-wise.

Vegeta is in the chamber healing from Zarbon's beating much longer. Gohan and Krillin beat monster Zarbon using their Guru power-ups. Dende tells the Earthlings that Porunga needs to be spoken to in Namekian, and Bulma is the one making the wishes to bring Piccolo back and such. Dende arrives midway through the Freeza fight. Goku's arrival and Vegeta's awakening in the healing pod happen at approximately the same time, and they team up to fight Freeza.

Goku is involved at every stage of the Freeza fight, despite being weaker than 1st Form. He keeps up by using higher and higher levels of Kaioken, until his body breaks trying to keep up with 4th Form Freeza using x10. He gets a zenkai from this, and the end of the fight goes as normal.

edited 27th Dec '17 12:00:25 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#73173: Dec 27th 2017 at 1:36:45 AM

He already is the UFB...so why is it still his show?

Because of endless self improvement, there will always be even stronger opponents and Goku is the main character.

I still don't get what people mean when they say that Dragon Ball is trying to be "subversive". When I think of that word, and what it's usually applied to, Dragon Ball is not it.

Because Toriyama likes to subvert expectations or so I have heard.

"Mai waifu."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73174: Dec 27th 2017 at 5:54:48 AM

That sounds more like a meme people spouted and then took as fact.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#73175: Dec 27th 2017 at 6:36:26 AM

It's been stated in interviews by him I believe.

Another one says that he's purposely contradictory.

He's admitted that the reason Goku didn't win the 21 Budokai is because fan mail he got said everyone assumed he'd win, and that seems to be the main reason he had him lose.

I do admit, while it probably worked at the time, these days his ability to do so is...lacking, because he's codified a lot of concepts and they are now expected.

One Strip! One Strip!

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