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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73126: Dec 26th 2017 at 9:47:09 PM

Haha Hell yeah Ginyu Force Rules. [awesome]

I know that was basically a non-answer but its fun confirming it.

The PT got nothing on the guys who got their own theme song for Zeno's sake.

[up][up] I wonder if we are ever gonna reach that point.

edited 26th Dec '17 9:47:47 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73127: Dec 26th 2017 at 9:47:12 PM

[up]x4 Do you mind dialing back on the pretentiousness?

edited 26th Dec '17 9:47:32 PM by Saiga

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#73128: Dec 26th 2017 at 9:47:56 PM

The Dark Tournament was a lot more exciting than the TOP. Not to say that is a huge milestone, but still.

Unlike the TOP, YYH's characters actually care about what's going on - Yusuke becomes more of a Blood Knight in this arc, yes, but his priorities are straight. If he doesn't win these matches and face Toguro, Toguro will murder the f'ck out of him and his friends. That's TOP's biggest problem. I'd like everything else a little more if Goku and the others stopped sandbagging around after Universe 9 got nuked.

We could talk about what's wrong with the TOP all day and still not strike upon anything new really, though. Yu Yu Hakusho was just better-written, and wasn't being written to fill a gap/time-skip. This thread's already established how inconsistent Super is overall.

At this point, just be happy the humans and the androids got their five minutes of fame. Because Super has been dead-set on making sure that Goku and Vegeta are the only ones who can solve conflicts. This is about as good as it will probably get for any of these characters.

edited 26th Dec '17 9:59:10 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73129: Dec 26th 2017 at 9:48:53 PM

[up][up] I was trying to be humourous but apparently it fell on deaf ears.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#73130: Dec 26th 2017 at 9:49:20 PM

But, anyway, I admit to being one of those not particularly fond of the Ginyu Force. I don't think they're bad, but I think they are actually an example of the stalling becoming a bit too blatant.

I wish a bit more had been done with Guldo, though, but Recoome tearing into everyone was great.

edited 26th Dec '17 9:51:09 PM by LSBK

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#73131: Dec 26th 2017 at 9:50:21 PM

I admittedly do wish that we got a Dark Tournament style Tournament of Power, if only because seeing the other universes fight without Universe 7 being involved would be neat.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73132: Dec 26th 2017 at 9:51:27 PM

[up][up][up] My bad. I dont think that came across with the tone of the rest of the post

Edit: being better than the TOP isn't the same as being good, or I'd look forward to falling down a flight of stairs.

edited 26th Dec '17 9:52:45 PM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73133: Dec 26th 2017 at 9:51:45 PM

[up] So, basically, a different shonen. Because that would basically just be "something other than Dragonball with whacky characters like robots and mouse gods".

You know, I can dig it.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#73134: Dec 26th 2017 at 9:52:40 PM

I mean, I have nothing against giving characters cool moments every now and then, but I really don't think writers should make a habit of making cool moments outside of the main plot a priority.

Fair enough. I mean, ideally, it would be nice to have both (a cool moment for the side characters that's also plot important and doesn't slow the plot to a crawl).

I reject the notion that characters are only useful if they get to beat people up. Krillin and Gohan were extremely useful in the Frieza Saga because they made friends with Dende and obtained the Dragon Balls. Even in the Cell saga, Krillin got to help blow up Gero's lab and redeem 18 and Yamcha got to show the strength of the Androids by getting a hole torn through his chest. That's to say nothing of how consistently relevant Bulma has remained while never lifting a finger. Characters exist beyond their battles.

Ok. I can't argue with this.

This too, marginalizing Krillin and Gohan's roles in Namek simply because they don't beat any major opponents is a large disservice to their character as without them, they would have never been able to be in a position to make their wishes on the Dragon Balls and Goku would basically be without any allies on Namek as Vegeta sure as fuck wouldn't help him if push came to shove.

This either, although I'd argue that they could have still had given them a few victories (via pulling it off by the skin of their teeth) while keeping that sense of being outmatched. I mean...did they really need to lose to Guuldo and get saved by Vegeta? And hell, just make Jeice and Burter stronger than Recoome and have Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin just barely managed to stop the latter, only to realize they now have two opponents left who are more powerful, and they barely have anything left. Then have Goku show up (after the other two have gotten a chance to strut their stuff and show how strong they are). Goku still swoops in to save the day, but Krillin and Gohan get to win a few fights as well, while the Ginyu still show themselves to be a fearsome group that you don't mess with.

Yamcha has a poor combat record because he is MEANT to be a less successful fighter than Kuririn and Tenshinhan. Not incompetent, but not someone who needs to have regular moments showing off their talent.

...that's a shitty role. I mean, it's somewhat necessary, but also shitty. I also think there was no reason to place that role on him alone. I guess I just resent the idea of having one fall guy who's there to get beat all the time. I don't think it was necessary to have Yamcha in that role all the time, even if I agree that someone had to do it.

Dragonball's issue was that it introduced characters and then discarded them once they'd served their purpose, but didn't always do it very cleanly.

Oh yes. Looking back on it, Toriyama creates arc characters....then keeps them around afterwards...but since he created them for that one arc, he clearly doesn't have any plans for what to do with them, hence his tendency to just toss them into a meat grinder or under a bus without much care at all. Only a small few have been lucky enough to continue getting development past their introduction (Bulma, Piccolo, Vegeta, Krillin, and of course Gohan, who's story spans Z...and then sinks harder than the Titanic).

I mean, sometimes I can almost hear him saying well, I don't need this guy anymore, but he'll make good fodder!

But I'll agree that trying to bring them back after basically throwing them away was a big mistake. Their time was done, and this should be the era of Gohan, Trunks, Goten, etc. But both Toriyama and Toei seem to be unwilling to do that.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73135: Dec 26th 2017 at 9:54:48 PM

WHY is that shitty? Someone is going to end up on the lower end, being deliberate anout it means you can handle it better than havong a character end up their by accident and who narratively shouldn't be there

Why must every character be 'cool'?

Jedi1113 Since: Jun, 2009
#73136: Dec 26th 2017 at 9:56:20 PM

I feel like the Pride Troopers could be more fun in better circumstances. Their day to day heroics instead of the T.o.P. probably have more sentai-y goodness.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#73137: Dec 26th 2017 at 9:57:06 PM

No, I mean still the Tournament of Power with the same characters, but with a Dark Tournament style bracket instead of being a Royal Rumble.

The only thing is that would only allow Universe 7 three rounds of fights.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73138: Dec 26th 2017 at 9:57:44 PM

[up][up] At the very least they need better choreography.

The poses the Fodder Troopers did were terrible.

[up] We might get that with the remaining universes possibly.

edited 26th Dec '17 9:58:17 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73139: Dec 26th 2017 at 9:57:52 PM

[up]x4 Not every character has to be cool but half the Z cast is literally there to lose. Like, you don't need that many jobbers.

Notice I never complain about Bulma but that's because she serves a non-fighting role. If they are a fighter, and they never win or do anything impressive, then they're kinda vestigal and should be canned or killed. Dragonball's linear power system doesn't help.

[up]x5 The mistake you make is assuming Super's supposed to continue the plot. We hoped it would, but it doesn't. Nothing changes. Arc, arc, arc, same status quo.

edited 26th Dec '17 9:58:52 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#73141: Dec 26th 2017 at 9:58:46 PM

Which shonen handles its side cast better isn't an answerable question because everyone has different standards for good handling. This conversely means discussing which is the worst at it equally pointless.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#73142: Dec 26th 2017 at 9:58:57 PM

...

I just think it's kinda a waste: Yamcha has some nice techniques (I love the rendition of the Wolf Fang Fist in the Path to Power, and the Sokidan was pretty nifty if flawed).

It may also be that the way the fandom makes him their punching bag has just started to grind my gears a little.

Maybe it's just personal because of way back when I watched that very first dub of Dragonball. Yeah, Yamcha had his fear of women, but that was good for a laugh, and a nice bit of silliness to contrast his ruthless thief persona.

Right, I might as well admit it; I just want it that way for the same reason most [people want certain characters to be cool: because that's just the way I want it. It's not rational, but dammit, that's how I am.

Don't judge me man! Down with Government!

....I'm fully willing to admit I lost this argument.

Edit: adding on a bit more, it really does feel like after a while, their only role was to lose. As Saiga said, not everyone needs to be cool, and as others have pointed out, there are other roles they can serve, but if you weren't Goku, Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta, or Piccolo, it seemed like all Toriyama could think of to do with you was smear you on the ground.

...poor Chiaotzu. I mean, his background in the third movie was more interesting than the TV series. Why not go with that?

edited 26th Dec '17 10:02:24 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73143: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:00:05 PM

[up] I don't blame you, the Wolf Fang Fist is probably the most impressive close combat move in the series and it was the first one introduced.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#73144: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:01:10 PM

[up][up][up]But then what would we have to talk in circles about?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#73145: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:01:55 PM

I actually thought of that when Pushover first pointed out that we had enough universes for a traditional tournament bracket.

Having 10 v 10s would bog things down even more than the 80 man battle (that's 7 battles of 10 v 10) but i was thinking they could be forced to split their universes into teams to only have 1 team per round (so each fighter can only have 1 fight)

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#73146: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:02:08 PM

Is Goku a bad father, y/n?

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#73147: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:02:44 PM

He's mediocre. He's at his worst in the Cell Saga.

It's hard to live down taking your time to get back to Earth when Freeza was coming and giving Cell a senzu bean.

He's also rather blase about having his son fight world destroying abominations.

edited 26th Dec '17 10:04:29 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#73148: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:03:37 PM

Not as bad as commonly made out to be, but not actually great either.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73149: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:04:42 PM

[up][up][up][up] That be interesting.

I mean its a little obvious were getting another tournament after this.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#73150: Dec 26th 2017 at 10:06:07 PM

In hindsight, Namek might be the worst plotted arc of the series.

Goku isn't even in 80% of it, either recovering in a hospital, training on a ship en route, or recovering in a healing tank. He also doesn't even interact with the Big Bad until their final battle.

Gohan and Krillin accomplish nothing aside from staying alive and playing keep-away with the Dragon Balls, which turned out to be utterly pointless because the people they were trying to keep from getting the Dragon Balls got them anyway and could never have used them. Bulma actually does literally nothing, a complete waste of one of the series' oldest and most important characters. The only character who accomplishes anything for most of the arc is Vegeta, who was just introduced and was the Big Bad of the previous arc. Piccolo shows up near the end of the arc just to get a power boost and then accomplish nothing with it, same as Gohan and Krillin's power boosts.

The arc repeats itself, doing the "wait for Goku to get here and save all of us" gimmick twice. Keeping the Dragon Balls away from Vegeta and Freeza loses all tension once you learn that neither of them was ever going to get immortality anyways. Freeza heals every time he transforms and is using less than 0.5% of his full power from the start, making everyone's fight with him up until the very end utterly pointless.


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