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Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#73026: Dec 26th 2017 at 3:03:40 PM

It's kind of funny how by the time Goku gets to Namek, literally 85% of the characters introduced are dead. And of those, he meets only four or five?

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73027: Dec 26th 2017 at 3:07:42 PM

I mean, I don't mind Goku's lack of presence on Namek. 90% of the franchise is about him anyway, so what's the problem with him not being the , isn't that something people complain about, too much Goku?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#73028: Dec 26th 2017 at 3:32:02 PM

Yes.

"Mai waifu."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#73029: Dec 26th 2017 at 3:34:29 PM

I find that "the protagonists does too much!" is the go to complaint often until the protagonist's role actually does gets rolled back, in which the complaints becomes "when did this story stop being about [insert character]/start being about [insert character]?!"

I know saying people like complaining for complaining's own sake is kind of dickish, but it's the feeling I often get.

edited 26th Dec '17 3:36:10 PM by LSBK

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73030: Dec 26th 2017 at 3:36:00 PM

Fans are a fickle bunch.

Also humans in general are a moronic species but that's beside the point.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Arachosia from United States Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#73031: Dec 26th 2017 at 3:46:57 PM

I always found that sentiment from the fan-base kind of weird too, but if I had to break it down, I guess people hate how Goku hogs too much glory when other people are more deserving of the spoils. During the Saiyan, Namek, and Cell arcs, it was the supporting cast that did the lions share of the fighting. But in the end, triumph is almost always given to Goku. I know that's not entirely true, but this is the way it's perceived.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#73032: Dec 26th 2017 at 3:49:07 PM

I mean, with Saiyans and Namek they did the "lions share" in hiding and almost getting killed. And who in the world argues that Goku hogs the spotlight during the Android Saga.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#73033: Dec 26th 2017 at 3:54:47 PM

I don't mind Goku not being around for most of Namek. I just find it amusing he doesn't interact with most of the cast that's introduced for the arc because they're all dead by the time he gets there.

Arachosia from United States Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#73034: Dec 26th 2017 at 3:57:13 PM

[up] [up] Hmm, I would say they hid mostly during the Namek saga (which was a good strategy). During the Saiyan saga, they stood toe-to-toe. They got decimated for their efforts, but I think that's why some people thought they deserved more than they got.

edited 26th Dec '17 3:58:00 PM by Arachosia

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#73035: Dec 26th 2017 at 4:07:47 PM

"Stood two-to-two" and "got decimated" do not sound compatible to me. Nor does it mean they deserve anything, it was better for the story overall. The story really isn't framed in a way in which "And they actually do okay until Goku shows up" would actually be satisfying if it happened.

edited 26th Dec '17 4:19:01 PM by LSBK

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#73036: Dec 26th 2017 at 4:16:44 PM

I mean, Namek is important to Goku's character arc. It's where he goes from rejecting his Sayian heritage, to embracing it.

Also, the one to defeat Freeza had to be Goku - I mean even aside from the fact that he's the main character. It's poetic justice that Freeza downfall is brought by a survivor of Planet Vegeta, but it couldn't be Vegeta who does it, because he lacks the moral high ground, having preformed planetary genocides himself. His defeat of Freeza would feel hypocritical.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#73037: Dec 26th 2017 at 4:20:19 PM

I kinda like the idea of a What If? where Vegeta becomes a Super Saiyan, defeats Frieza, and then Goku has to fight him.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#73038: Dec 26th 2017 at 4:21:27 PM

Having your main character absent for much of the story arc while the supporting cast accomplish nothing waiting for him to arrive and fix all their problems is not a good way to use your main character or your supporting cast. Krillin and Gohan are the focus characters for the first half of Namek but Vegeta, the villain of the last arc, is the one who defeats literally all the named threats until he's stopped by Recoome and joins Krillin and Gohan in waiting for Goku. Krillin and Gohan don't even get to use their Guru power-ups. All they do is put up a bit of a fight against Guldo before they lose and Vegeta steps in to save them. If Krillin had defeated Dodoria and Gohan had defeated Zarbon, then maybe their Guru power-ups would serve some kind of point to the story. As it is, they just do nothing with them.

The most Krillin and Gohan accomplish on Namek is playing keep-away with the Dragon Balls, which is rendered pointless anyway when the Ginyu Force takes all of them as their very first action on-screen. It's rendered even more pointless with the reveal that Freeza never had a chance to have his wish to begin with because you can't make a wish on the Dragon Balls unless you speak Namekian, and there was never any implication that any of the Namekians would be willing to let him have his immortality.

Actually, I just realized something else! You know how Bulma does even less than Krillin and Gohan, literally just sitting on the sidelines for the whole arc? BULMA CAN SPEAK NAMEKIAN. SHE LEARNED IT IN ORDER TO PILOT KAMI'S SHIP! WHY WASN'T THIS RELEVANT TO THE STORY, ESPECIALLY ONCE THE CHARACTERS INABILITY TO SPEAK NAMEKIAN BECAME A PLOT POINT?!

edited 26th Dec '17 4:29:29 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Arachosia from United States Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#73039: Dec 26th 2017 at 4:25:04 PM

[up] [up] [up] [up] I meant in the meaning that they didn't balk in the face of insurmountable odds. They stood their ground and fought like true warriors. Yes, in the end, they got slaughtered by Nappa, but that's why some people think they deserved more glory than what they received. And for the record, I totally agree that it was in the story's best interest if Goku defeated the villains. I'm just trying to explain why some people have an issue with Goku hogging final victories when the supporting cast does the majority of the work (like Pushover explained [up]).

edited 26th Dec '17 4:27:17 PM by Arachosia

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#73040: Dec 26th 2017 at 4:27:35 PM

[up]Fair enough. I just don't really get that sort of thinking. I get it can be hard to watch if you like the characters, but I feel like it's a bigger disservice to the characters to just throw them bones that overall hurt the story.

Which is part of the reason why Super's stuff with the side characters doesn't really hit home with me most of the time.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#73041: Dec 26th 2017 at 4:32:31 PM

I find that "the protagonists does too much!" is the go to complaint often until the protagonist's role actually does gets rolled back, in which the complaints becomes "when did this story stop being about [insert character]/start being about [insert character]?!"

Only when this is done poorly.

Arachosia from United States Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#73042: Dec 26th 2017 at 4:35:19 PM

[up] [up] So, would you be in favor of Toriyama handling the supporting cast the way Oda handles the SH's outside the monster trio?

edited 26th Dec '17 4:35:37 PM by Arachosia

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#73043: Dec 26th 2017 at 4:40:23 PM

I think Oda and Toriyama have fundamentally different things they wanted to do with their characters so it's not particularly comparable.

I don't think it's that Toriyama couldn't have done more with them (though that would require rewriting the story in very drastic ways) it's that he mostly stopped wanting to. Oda, by comparison intentionally put all the non-Monster Trio Straw Hats on the crew, meaning they shouldn't be supporting characters, they should be main characters. That many of them often don't seem like they are is an entirely different issue, I think.

edited 26th Dec '17 4:47:15 PM by LSBK

Arachosia from United States Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#73045: Dec 26th 2017 at 4:45:28 PM

I'm still focused on the Bulma thing. You have a character who's been around since the start of the series and has been a major character since the beginning, who now has exactly the ability the other characters need to make the Macguffins of the arc work, and you have her SIT ON THE SIDELINES DOING NOTHING. I'm so angry about this. I'm angry that it took me this long to realize this and I'm angry that this isn't something I've ever seen mentioned before.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73046: Dec 26th 2017 at 4:51:44 PM

It's kind of funny because it's a similar way of handling. Some characters are more focused on than others. For Dragon Ball, it's Goku and Vegeta and in One Piece it's Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji.

The difference I think is that Dragon Ball doesn't even give the illusion that anyone but Goku or Vegeta are anything but second stringers. While One Piece often feels like it makes out character's roles to be bigger than they actually are despite the fact that most of the heavy lifting are from the Monster Trio.

I do understand though, it can feel like a real disservice to have your supporting cast try their hardest only to come up short and make way for the main character. It's mostly how Shonen manga work compared to say, comics.

In Western Comics, every character at least feels tangentially important and conflicts are almost always resolved through equal contributions rather than everything falling onto one character while everyone else are just there to supplement his journey.

[up] Guru still dies though, so the point is rendered moot.

edited 26th Dec '17 4:52:35 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#73047: Dec 26th 2017 at 4:52:58 PM

Isn't Vegeta a second stringer too?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#73048: Dec 26th 2017 at 4:57:25 PM

He's a second fiddle thank you very much!

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#73049: Dec 26th 2017 at 4:58:40 PM

He still contributes the most out of anyone besides Goku so there's that.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#73050: Dec 26th 2017 at 4:58:59 PM

Which is still much more than can be said for most of the others.


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