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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#72951: Dec 25th 2017 at 2:40:49 PM

It feels really odd to defend utter breaking of "Magic A" Is "Magic A" since this is usually the stuff that grinds my gears but that's just how little late-Z's power system appeals to me.

I think it's probably because there's a lot of the fundamental system being based on inconsistencies. Super Saiyan being a once-in-a-millenia event, for instance, now gets regularly handed out. I can more or less buy that, that's just a bit of hype. But Super Saiyan 2 used to be a Gohan-only thing, or at least a hybrid-only thing. It wasn't even originally Super Saiyan 2, it was "Gohan going batshit crazy". Then there's Goten and Trunks and so on and so forth.

And it's not just Saiyans. Humans get a lot of stick for inconsistencies obviously, but that actually goes back way to the start of Z. In less time than it took for Goku to train for the final Tenkaiichi Budokai, Yamcha, Krillin and Tien are all doubly stronger than Goku was when he was killed by Raditz, for instance.

So characters are handed power ups that don't make a whole lot of sense even before we get to the age of "becoming as strong as a god by killing poachers" or whatever.

And while Super doesn't appeal to me in general, stuff like "THAT'S MY BULMA" and "YOU WILL NOT DESTROY MY WORLD" do, both very, very sketchy in terms of consistency.

(then there's fucking moronic stuff like Krillin fighting Goku in SSB. Seriously? Just have Goku in base form and have it be a battle of technique, not strength.)

edited 25th Dec '17 2:42:18 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#72952: Dec 25th 2017 at 2:41:50 PM

[up][up]The modern movies tend to have fantastic animation throughout, so I'm hyped for the 20th movie as well.

edited 25th Dec '17 2:42:40 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#72953: Dec 25th 2017 at 2:47:44 PM

[up][up] The "You Will Not Destroy My World" bit was only in the movie not Super.

Damn that was an awesome moment though. [tup]

edited 25th Dec '17 2:48:01 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72954: Dec 25th 2017 at 2:49:19 PM

Super Saiyan was never 'once a millenia', that's an adaptation change.

Super Saiyan 2 wasn't Gohan only or hybrid only. It was always a separate form.

The humans' gains were extreme, but also given an explanation in-universe (two, in fact) - being directly supervised while Goku was not, and having sparring partners for more benefits.

Your examples on the original series are rooted in fanon or adaptation changes.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#72955: Dec 25th 2017 at 2:49:31 PM

Seems like a better nitpick is: "why hasn't everyone spent a few hours sitting in front of Elder Kaioshin while he does his dance"?

I remember Elder Kai did offer to do that in the leadup to the tournament, but it was shot down because it takes like 20 hours, there were only a couple hours till the TOP started, and Vegeta blew up the Time Chamber like a moron.

edited 25th Dec '17 2:50:01 PM by Moth13

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#72956: Dec 25th 2017 at 2:51:18 PM

On a related note, isn't Broly's existence rooted in that same misunderstand about the original legend? That at least makes it seem like the wording was a bit unclear even in the original Japanese.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#72957: Dec 25th 2017 at 2:57:42 PM

Super Saiyan 2 wasn't Gohan only or hybrid only. It was always a separate form.

Actually, it wasn't. It's not even called Super Saiyan 2 until Buu saga. It was originally "Gohan goes fucking crazy and uses his inner power for the first time fully"

The humans' gains were extreme, but also given an explanation in-universe (two, in fact) - being directly supervised while Goku was not, and having sparring partners for more benefits.

That explanation is worse than a simple inconsistency because it implies Kami - who has basically got nothing else to do but sit on his wrinkled green ass all day - wouldn't personally supervise the training of a guy he expects to fight and kill his ultrapowerful demonic half for the second time. You do not half ass something as important as that.

edited 25th Dec '17 2:59:33 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#72958: Dec 25th 2017 at 3:09:53 PM

Think there's any relation between Murichim (U10 team leader) and Murisam (U10 red boxer guy)? Seems odd to give them such similar names if there's no connection between them.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72960: Dec 25th 2017 at 3:13:52 PM

It's not a voodoo shark because we already knew that God didn't supervise Goku. He says so during the 23rd Budokai arc, because he was making his own preparations to take on Piccolo and didn't think Goku would be able to do it. It's also how he's able to be surprised at Goku's strength.

He never expected Goku to fight and kill Piccolo. All of this is laid out pretty clearly in the 23rd Budokai arc.

Super Saiyan 2 WAS a separate form, even though it had a name. Because we see, in the Cell arc, Gohan can go in and out of it at will. Just like what Goku does with Super Saiyan in the Freeza fight, and that it has a unique appearance and aura effect. You have no source for it not being a form, you just keep insisting it is. You are wrong.

Furthermore, it still appeared in supplementary materials released in that timeframe and was noted as a separate form (though it was called 'Grade V' and FP SS was called 'Grade IV' as the names had not been cemented by the manga).

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#72961: Dec 25th 2017 at 3:14:47 PM

Actually, it wasn't. It's not even called Super Saiyan 2 until Buu saga. It was originally "Gohan goes fucking crazy and uses his inner power for the first time fully"

That's not a particularly strong argument. Gohan clearly could switch between the two forms, and what does it matter when they started calling it by name? Specifically when the when was just the next arc?

edited 25th Dec '17 3:15:30 PM by LSBK

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72962: Dec 25th 2017 at 3:15:24 PM

Furthermore, Goku and Vegeta were using it as a separate transformation before it was named anyway.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#72963: Dec 25th 2017 at 3:48:12 PM

It's not a voodoo shark because we already knew that God didn't supervise Goku. He says so during the 23rd Budokai arc, because he was making his own preparations to take on Piccolo and didn't think Goku would be able to do it. It's also how he's able to be surprised at Goku's strength.

Then why train Goku in the first place if he never planned for him to even fight? I mean, it worked out in the end since when the Mafuuba failed Goku was there to pick up the slack, but what if Popo's training hadn't been enough? Kami really should have been making absolute sure he had as many plans as possible considering the stakes.

One Strip! One Strip!
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#72964: Dec 25th 2017 at 3:50:17 PM

The plan wasn't to not have Goku fight. The plan was to have Goku put up a fight in order to have as much of a resistance as possible while Kami focused on a plan that would be more guaranteed to work, as you yourself said.

edit: Listen to Saiga, not me. He is more than likely more right than me.

edited 25th Dec '17 3:51:24 PM by EpicBleye

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72965: Dec 25th 2017 at 3:50:55 PM

He was training Goku because Goku wanted to be trained. Goku wasn't even the back up plan, God didn't want him fighting Piccolo.

TwistedGear Don't know how to pilot this thing Since: Jun, 2014
Don't know how to pilot this thing
#72966: Dec 25th 2017 at 4:00:24 PM

[up] You do realize how utterly confusing it is to call Kami "God" considering there are over 30 other characters in the franchise that the name "God" can apply too, right?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#72967: Dec 25th 2017 at 4:02:04 PM

Hell, there's over 40.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72968: Dec 25th 2017 at 4:02:52 PM

Except only one of them is called God.

TwistedGear Don't know how to pilot this thing Since: Jun, 2014
Don't know how to pilot this thing
#72969: Dec 25th 2017 at 4:09:43 PM

[up]not really, they're all called "God" in that some part of their name or title hints at their status as a deity if not flat out states it. Only one is called "Kami".

edited 25th Dec '17 4:10:38 PM by TwistedGear

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72970: Dec 25th 2017 at 4:10:47 PM

Exactly, only one is called God.

Because that's what Kami-sama means. Capital G God.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#72971: Dec 25th 2017 at 4:11:44 PM

And the God thing is more of a title than actual name.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#72972: Dec 25th 2017 at 4:17:40 PM

What does Kai mean?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72974: Dec 25th 2017 at 4:22:06 PM

[up]World King specifically. Or literally "Lord of Worlds"

And yes, God in the context Saiga is using is a title, not a status like the Gods of Destruction.

edited 25th Dec '17 4:22:35 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#72975: Dec 25th 2017 at 4:30:11 PM

What does Kai mean?

Yeah, it means "world" or "realm". It's a shortened version of the title in Japanese: "Kai-ou", "World-King".


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