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hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#72826: Dec 23rd 2017 at 7:56:39 PM

He was cooler than Kale and Caulifla in my book, but whatever.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72827: Dec 23rd 2017 at 7:57:04 PM

Because he doesn't matter. He was just there to give Universe 7 one last hurrah before they fight the "real" antagonists.

It really does strike me as odd that they gave him such a distinct design and abilities, because they should have realized that he was simply going to be thrown away in the end.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#72828: Dec 23rd 2017 at 7:58:13 PM

The people working on this show are somehow both competent & incompetent.

Its rather amazing honestly.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72829: Dec 23rd 2017 at 7:58:43 PM

I wouldn't agree with the first of those.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#72830: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:00:15 PM

The animation is competent at times. Give kudos to the animators (when they're trying).

Can't say the same for the writers.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72831: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:00:52 PM

I mean, they just follow Toriyama's outline. All of this is Toryama's will.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#72832: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:02:53 PM

[up] He only gives specific plot points, nothing else. Its Tohei's job to make actual arcs out of that & fill in the gaps.

[up][up] That's it really, the animation has really come far especially from the start of the show but the writers are still fucking incompetent.

edited 23rd Dec '17 8:03:40 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72833: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:04:35 PM

You can't place blame squarely on Toriyama, we've seen how barebones his outlines are. And I do criticize the decisions that have been attributed to him, but Super is made up of far more than just his general outline and there is so much that can be criticized beyond the greater plot points.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#72834: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:05:01 PM

Plus, he'd rather both the manga and anime diverge from his outline more. The writers are the ones that have issues with that.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#72835: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:05:48 PM

@slimcoder

I mean, I wish they were good. Would be nice to have a compelling arc. But wishing doesn't equal reality.

edited 23rd Dec '17 8:06:20 PM by hardcorefakes

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#72836: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:07:59 PM

Its just so annoying that such a successful franchise that literally prints money seems unable to hire competent writers.

Especially since this show is not being held back by following the manga. They can actually plan this shit out now.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#72837: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:09:45 PM

I thought they had something going at the beginning of this arc with the whole "every universe thinks Goku is a villain", but they just dropped that for some reason.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#72838: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:09:50 PM

On a similar note, thus far what has everyone's favourite (or least hated, if that is the case) Super arc?

Probably the Universe 6 vs 7 tournament. It helps that unlike every other, it kept the premise and stakes relatively simple. My only real complaint with that arc was Majin Buu getting shafted. Between that and this arc, I get the impression that Toriyama and Toei really doesn't know what to do with the character.

Anyway, I'm getting the feeling Frieza is just going to stick around after all of this is done. Well, I've thought that for awhile but this episode makes that feeling stronger.

That's what I'm getting as well. I'm sure he'll ultimately be Commuting on a Bus, but at this point it feels like they've built him up to much to just permanently write him out of the story again. I definitely see Freeza sticking around as the Token Evil Teammate going forward.

edited 23rd Dec '17 8:10:25 PM by Lionheart0

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#72839: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:10:35 PM

I'd agree they show a decent amount of competence that is often stymied by their astounding ability to waste and botch their own ideas. This show simultanously reaches for the stars and wastes its own potential. It's generally "okay"/"slightly better than okay" when ultimately it should at least be consistently "good" going into "great."

Thinking about it, I think part of the problem here (at least in this specific case) is the format they're trying to adhere to in writing this. Since it's made from guidelines and not adapted from anything, the Super anime is written like a tv show - a very episodic tv show often - in which plot beats adhere to the runtime of the show. I've thought that this arc in particular would've benefited immensely from starting plots halfway through episodes and continuing them into other episodes, changing tracks in the middle of episodes or having plots that come in and out of significance even as they're running.

But instead, it's written such that every plot point or phase has to begin and end in the span of twenty two minutes. So the huge mecha gets twenty minutes to be introduced and run its course, and then Aniraza is hinted at the very end of the episode so they can hype up the next episode, so the next episode can formally be about him, introduce him and use him within it's twenty two minutes and end hyping up the coming battle with Universe 11. Which is an efficient use of time, but not an efficient use of the actual plot. In this case, it results in everything being rushed because they have to hit certain beats before they wanted to get rid of Aniraza, and in general them being unable to do anything with the ideas they're introducing because everything has to be neatly resolved by the episode's end.

The most obvious sufferer of this is the fight with the U6 Saiyan girls, where you can tell they stretched it out and had the various phases of the fight drag on to that they could end episode 1 with Berserker Kale, drag on again so they could end episode 2 with Kefla, then episode 3 with Ultra Instinct, etc. Which I'm sure they assumed would lead to maximum hype, but which actually resulted in with maximum tedium - especially since this happens immediately after the Jiren fight which has the same problems. The Jiren -> Kefla chain of episodes could've stood to at least be a couple episodes shorter, had they had the plot flow in a more straightforward way.

There's also an overall problem with this series that it just plain doesn't set up arcs or running stories - not between well or poorly, but just plain at all with one semi-exception - and this story is a big suffer of it because they make what is already meant to be a smaller scale episodic concept into some kind of big, epic plotline that they're not prepared to properly pursue.

edited 23rd Dec '17 8:14:27 PM by KnownUnknown

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#72840: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:13:01 PM

I think letting your guard down after you've cut off an enemy's arm is a reasonable thing to do?

It's that kind of thinking that got him absorbed by Buu.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#72841: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:13:12 PM

Maybe Toriyama should flesh out his outlines more, if the writers are struggling this much.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72842: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:14:23 PM

[up][up] [up]I'm assuming this is mostly because unlike the original Anime, there's no actual manga to adapt. Super is entirely original. I see a lot of Anime run into this problem with it's 20 minute format.

edited 23rd Dec '17 8:14:34 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#72843: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:15:09 PM

Toei's been defaulting to the way they wrote the movies in this arc, too, which gets more and more noticeable. Big tough brute who goes down to one awesome team moment feels a lot like how the Broly sequels went.

edited 23rd Dec '17 8:15:34 PM by KnownUnknown

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#72844: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:26:36 PM

So we have Jiren being stronger than time and Anilaza being stronger than space. What aspect of reality will be next to fall?

Deadpoolrocks Since: Sep, 2010
#72845: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:35:36 PM

Logic? Common sense? Physics?

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#72846: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:35:43 PM

Gravity and Magnetism are still up and kicking.

Deadpoolrocks Since: Sep, 2010
#72847: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:37:46 PM

gravity is still kicking when jiren csn just float somehow Eh

edited 23rd Dec '17 8:38:23 PM by Deadpoolrocks

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#72848: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:40:32 PM

Gravity & magnetic manipulation would be pretty rad powers for a DB villain to have.

I'm reminded of Graviton of Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes who was able to take on the entire Avengers team included which included the Hulk & Thor at full power.

The problem would be the fact they wouldn't use these powers to their full potential & just turn them into lame weak gimmick fighters.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#72849: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:43:03 PM

Dimensions is the theoretical Z-axis to time's X and space's Y, so maybe that.

edited 23rd Dec '17 8:43:42 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#72850: Dec 23rd 2017 at 8:43:23 PM

"The problem would be the fact they wouldn't use these powers to their full potential & just turn them into lame weak gimmick fighters."

This was the problem with Hit. Not Hit himself, mind you, but his timejump power. It doesn't work on people stronger than him. If they're weaker than him of course he's going to win, this is Dragonball. So his timejump power actually matters very little.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"

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