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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#72301: Dec 18th 2017 at 3:19:44 PM

I'm just worried because, by the process of elimination, I know he hates my favorite saga in all of Dragon Ball.

If it makes you feel any better he explicitly says he likes both the Cell and Buu arcs, he just doesn't think they're as good compared to most of the other arcs of the series.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72302: Dec 18th 2017 at 3:23:27 PM

[up][up][up] Holy shit that's even crazier

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#72303: Dec 18th 2017 at 3:51:42 PM

I'm gonna agree that Cold is pretty vestigal and not really needed. There's an old saying that if something doesn't contribute to a story cut it out and I feel Cold is that.

I have a sneaking feeling that he likes the Buu arc more than the Cell arc because of the OG Dragonball feel at the start, which I can understand but for me it just drags on and on - not to say Cell didn't, but with Buu it feels like there's a ton of fakeouts introduced (Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiyan 3, Vegito) that really drag the story down. Buu really doubles down on all of the Cell Saga's weaknesses.

Also, not sure why he's complaining about Cell being an arc where humans are shafted. Tien's last stand is more impressive than basically anything Krillin does in the whole of the Freeza saga.

edited 18th Dec '17 3:55:32 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#72304: Dec 18th 2017 at 3:55:52 PM

There's a lot of things that aren't strictly needed by the story but I feel like people would complain if the cast only had about five people in it.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72305: Dec 18th 2017 at 3:56:27 PM

Every story has tertiary characters. If Cold took up a significant amount of screentime or caused issues, I'd understand. But cutting him is like cutting tournament officials or other minor characters: it doesn't actually improve anything, and you lose what he did bring.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#72306: Dec 18th 2017 at 3:56:50 PM

I say that the Saiyan Saga was the weakest Z arc. The best things it did in the arc itself were Gohan and Piccolo's friendship and the Vegeta fight. All of the other good stuff it did was more set up for better stuff later in the series (Vegeta, the direction of the series from now on, Frieza foreshadowing, etc.).

edited 18th Dec '17 3:57:10 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#72307: Dec 18th 2017 at 3:57:05 PM

For one we don't need multiple Androids but 16, 17, & 18 are all likable characters.

[up][up] It would just make things really short.

edited 18th Dec '17 3:57:48 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#72308: Dec 18th 2017 at 4:00:44 PM

[up][up] I actually think the Saiyan saga is the *strongest* Z arc. There are some really good fights, almost every character gets something to do, character arcs are pretty consistent and actually, Freeza isn't even mentioned until the Freeza arc starts; in fact I'd say a lot of the strongest parts of Z are built off of that foundation.

edited 18th Dec '17 4:01:29 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72309: Dec 18th 2017 at 4:03:49 PM

The Saiyan arc doesn't even set up the Freeza arc that much, there's a pretty large retcon to introduce Freeza and work him into the story.

I agree that the Saiyan arc is the strongest Z arc - I say it's the strongest arc of the series.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72310: Dec 18th 2017 at 4:06:10 PM

Yea, I definitely agree with that sentiment.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#72311: Dec 18th 2017 at 4:06:54 PM

almost every character gets something to do

Like die.

No but seriously I agree with the character arcs and setting up the foundations of Z but almost none of them get payoff until later on. Like Vegeta is pretty much just an Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy who's after immortality and it isn't until Frieza that he gains depth. The only character arc that is truly paid off in the arc itself is Piccolo's. Basically it's a very important arc and the series can not function without it, but completely divorced from everything else, I don't find it that great.

And yeah after thinking about it, Frieza wasn't really foreshadowed. I misremembered.

edited 18th Dec '17 4:09:05 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#72312: Dec 18th 2017 at 4:07:04 PM

There's a lot of things that aren't strictly needed by the story but I feel like people would complain if the cast only had about five people in it.

Eh, Ed Edd N Eddy did it.

edited 18th Dec '17 4:17:59 PM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#72313: Dec 18th 2017 at 4:08:05 PM

[up][up][up]I'll agree with that.

Characters were at the right level of power for me, and we got some interesting revelations.

Plus, it took a herculean massive effort to defeat Vegeta. I'd say it's biggest flaw was the constant jerking around with the spirit bomb, but even then, I'd admit it was used well.

Saiyan arc: all good baby.

Edit: [up][up] Well, pobody's nerfect.

edited 18th Dec '17 4:09:09 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#72314: Dec 18th 2017 at 4:12:28 PM

[up][up]Well, 9 characters...but it works.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72315: Dec 18th 2017 at 4:13:03 PM

Saiyan arc Vegeta is great. He has everything he needs as a villain for the arc, and the depth he gains is so he can continue as a cast member.

I also don't see what character arcs are done in the future, except for Gohan's which was botched in the end anyway.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#72316: Dec 18th 2017 at 4:15:58 PM

"Like die."

Whoa there, tone it down a notch?

Even the really weak characters in the story get to do stuff (except Yamcha, poor Yamcha). Krillin gets to wipe out 3 Saibamen with his Scatter Ki Blasts. Choatzu and Tien get to go out heroically (while still jobbing), Piccolo gets to sacrifice himself to save his young charge and Gohan gets to deliver the spirit bomb *and* transform into a Great Ape to stop Vegeta. Even Yajirobe - *Yajirobe* - gets to deal one of the most critical strikes in the battle.

Vegeta himself might not be particularly deep at this point in the arc, but what he's important is as a foil to Goku. Goku is a wretch to Vegeta; Goku was born a mere serf while Vegeta is nobility (though his rank of Prince is also not introduced at this point) yet Goku stands on the cusp of surpassing Vegeta. Vegeta embraces the Saiyan way of crushing opponents while Goku rejects it. Goku, in this arc, is more than Saiyan: he's a Saiyan *from Earth* who combines his natural talents with the wisdom imparted by Master Roshi, Korrin, Popo, Kami and now King Kai to defend a planet instead of destroying it. By defying Vegeta, Goku defies the entire burden of fate that the universe had sought to drop on his shoulders.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#72317: Dec 18th 2017 at 4:21:30 PM

Whoa there, tone it down a notch?

I mean, am I wrong?

Also I don't really look as favorably on Tien and Chiaotzu's sacrifices than others might be. They try, but they did precisely jack. Piccolo and Yajirobe were good, no arguments there, and Krillin and Gohan doing important things continues on for a while.

This song needs more love.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#72318: Dec 18th 2017 at 4:22:53 PM

How many Radtiz' was Vegeta measured up in back then? tongue

edited 18th Dec '17 4:23:07 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#72319: Dec 18th 2017 at 4:43:37 PM

[up][up] I mean I'd prefer you don't make death threats, joking or not.

I get what you're saying about Tien and Chaotzu but it does help build tension (or Tiension, or Tensionhan...) for Nappa.

Also, I don't think Krillin really does anything impressive ever again really, aside from mocking Freeza.

[up] Raditz is 1500 give or take, Vegeta is 18000, so he's 12 Raditzes.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#72320: Dec 18th 2017 at 4:45:17 PM

Death threats? What? Vatek is saying that most of the characters not named Goku literally serve no purpose but to die to the saiyans.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#72321: Dec 18th 2017 at 4:45:46 PM

[up][up]Oh that wasn't a death threat. You said "everyone gets something to do" and I was making a joke about how most of those characters died.

[nja]

And Krillin might not get something important to do fighting-wise but he's a very important character in general in the Frieza and Cell arcs.

edited 18th Dec '17 4:47:26 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72322: Dec 18th 2017 at 4:47:43 PM

Oh i also misunderstood that

Yes, they get to die, and its good

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#72323: Dec 18th 2017 at 4:47:45 PM

Oh, my bad, sorry. That's totally on me.

The only time the humans are used exceptionally well outside of the Saiyan Saga is when Tien gets to stall Cell IMO. Krillin (and Gohan) don't achieve jack shit on Namek and the human cast basically does nothing important for the rest of the series. Should have just left them all retire like Yamcha and baseball. If they wanted to humans to still be relevant as backup they should have given them the Kaioken (and let them drink the Ultra Divine Water).

edited 18th Dec '17 4:52:21 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#72324: Dec 18th 2017 at 5:07:51 PM

It would be better if...

All the characters died and...we got a DB Generations or something...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72325: Dec 18th 2017 at 5:07:59 PM

I wouldnt say ten stalling on cell is using him well. It's just fanservice and mostly irrelevent

That's the kind of unnnessecary element I'd cut

edited 18th Dec '17 5:08:28 PM by Saiga


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