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Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#72251: Dec 17th 2017 at 10:14:39 PM

Yes they are, by a wide margin. This is made clear through multiple points in the manga, 18 is far weaker than any of the mastered Super Saiyans.

I know I'm going to regret getting into a power level discussion, but where are you getting this from? Because I don't remember anything like that.

What you achieve by empowering/handwaving the humans (fuck all beyond pandering) is not worth the logic breaks to facilitate it.

Having an unbroken chain of logic can be nice, but I don't hold it as the be all end all, especially in dragonball of all series. Actually using more of the extended cast is well worth some handwaves and changes in series mechanics, because those things aren't really that important in the grand scheme of things.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#72252: Dec 17th 2017 at 10:17:45 PM

Mastered Super Saiyan is the form that Vegeta used to beat Semi-perfect Cell, right? And Imperfect Cell was stronger then 18. QED, Mastered Super Saiyan Vegeta is stronger than 18.

edited 17th Dec '17 10:18:17 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#72253: Dec 17th 2017 at 10:22:25 PM

As far as I recall, no, Vegeta didn't use mastered Super Saiyan against Semi-Perfect Cell. He and Trunks only found out about it after Goku and Gohan came out of the chamber and saw that they had done it.

As far as (internal) logic and Dragon Ball goes, while as Saiga said it's never been air-tight, it used to be a lot tighter than Super. And when something like Super spits all over previously established dynamics and consistency for blatant pandering, you should expect that some people are going to be upset about that. I (nor anyone else) can't tell you what to be upset about, but we are perfectly justified in having issues with that, and expressing those issues. And if other people happen to find that lessening their enjoyment of things, well, that's frankly their problem.

This thread might get heated sometimes, but it's hardly what I would call "toxic"; people voicing complaints, that they regularly give in-depth explanations for, does not come any where close to my definition of the word.

edited 17th Dec '17 10:28:35 PM by LSBK

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72254: Dec 17th 2017 at 10:28:05 PM

Once Trunks and Goten go Super Saiyan, Goten is worried they'll hurt 18, but Trunks points out she used to be stronger than their dads and as long as he holds back he won't kill her (and his comment shows that he's been informed how powerful she is).

Then said held-back blast makes her positively shit herself and she realizes she needs to disqualify them quick.

Plus there's their performances agaibst the other adults. Goten makes Gohan exert a lot of effort in their sparring, even pushing him back on a land battle. 18 is nowhere near strong enough for that, since she's waaaay weaker than the guys who are waaay weaker than half of a Goku who is waaay weaker than Gohan.

Edit: Mastered Super Saiyan, also known as Super Saiyan Full Power, is the state Goku and Gohan achieve in the ROSAT, with Vegeta and Trunks achieving it later. It's not a distinct form, but the perfected version of Super Saiyan 1 which allowed the Saiyans to become a great deal stronger in a short period of time.

edited 17th Dec '17 10:30:28 PM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#72255: Dec 17th 2017 at 10:33:57 PM

Ah, I mixed it up with Ascended Super Saiyan.

To be honest, I think I would have preferred if Raw super saiyan 1 was it and could only be maintained for a short while. That way it would have been a strategic trump card to end battles with the drawback of fading quickly rather than just the standard buff popped on before a match that it became.

edited 17th Dec '17 10:34:26 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#72256: Dec 17th 2017 at 10:34:29 PM

Gotendo made Gohand struggle just to dodge some rocks....

It's pretty obvious how strong they were.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72257: Dec 17th 2017 at 10:38:37 PM

That would get old very quickly and would likely become a once per fight worf to establish how serious things were. It's a hard thing to do fresh spins on, which is a problem when it has to be consciously turned on at a specific point.

Super Saiyan is the new black avoids that by having it just turned on at the start and otherwise everything is as default.

I do like how the manga handled the progression of Blue, and how UI is being gradually worked out. But the temporary power-up wouldn't work well in the long run and cuts off the exploration of the form that the Android arc had.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#72258: Dec 17th 2017 at 10:45:29 PM

The arc didn't "explore it" they just made it better and better. There wasn't any philosophical stuff about it. The only bit of exploration I can think of is Ultra Saiyan being rubbish, which, yes, is a nice bit.

edited 17th Dec '17 10:46:03 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72259: Dec 17th 2017 at 10:51:26 PM

Um. Why do you equate 'explore' with being philosophical?

They explored different ways of improving it. Grade II, Grade III and then decided neither form was worth it AND finding a way to optimise the original form.

It wasn't just 'everything becomes better'.

edited 17th Dec '17 10:52:04 PM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#72260: Dec 17th 2017 at 11:09:18 PM

They might as well have just trained and gotten stronger for all the difference it makes.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#72261: Dec 17th 2017 at 11:11:44 PM

It is much better to get some reasons for why the training is effective, and shows off Goku's own talent for producing that idea.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#72262: Dec 18th 2017 at 6:10:27 AM

[up]x4

I don't think there's much philosophical potential for something that is essentially just "a stronger Super Saiyan".

GOI god of insanity from everywhere/nowhere Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
god of insanity
#72263: Dec 18th 2017 at 6:55:26 AM

Can I ask where the full power super sayain is stronger comes from because nothing I can find says that. I thought from the description it was just normal super sayain without the drawbacks.

In fact I'm pretty sure that grade three at least is stronger than it even if it is a worse form due to the speed decrease.

Though someone made an explanation of super sayain anger but I can't find any sources so I'm pretty sure it was just fan made but it was trucks combining SSS 2(Or just normal SS 2) with the third grade form plus a rage boost like vegata used that the wiki refers to quake of fury to internalise the power up. Like I said I'm pretty sure this is a fan theroy but who knows maybe someone else can find something that confirms or denies this

edited 18th Dec '17 6:59:30 AM by GOI

The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success. Insanity runs in my family. It practically gallops.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#72264: Dec 18th 2017 at 7:00:25 AM

I believe that Full Power is stronger due to using less energy to not only start the transformation, but maintain it (since it's become natural to them). Now all that energy they would have used for transforming and staying transformed goes to other stuff instead.

Honestly, part of me wishes that full powered had been SS 2 instead of actually having SS 2. But that's my the humans got screwed and should still be useful side talking.

It might also be my Super Saiyan sure became useless quickly side as well. 17 and 18 literally rendered it obsolete after one arc of dominance.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#72265: Dec 18th 2017 at 7:04:39 AM

That doesn't matter. The androids would always have been stronger than the strongest protagonists even if Super Saiyan never existed.

GOI god of insanity from everywhere/nowhere Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
god of insanity
#72266: Dec 18th 2017 at 7:12:49 AM

Aw I see, Yeah that makes sense so I would say it's 50/50 then So where at least in terms of raw power would you say it comes. I mean we know it that in terms of raw power for the first form third grade is at the top with the base SS at the bottom so would it be stronger than Second grade.

I mean Overall it is better since you can think better, fight longer and unless that has been changed train it so that becomes the strongest base SS for even more so than SS 3 ( Akira Toriyama is the creator(I think I don't really pay attention to this too much it is mainly from forms like this I learn about who makes what) he said that in an interview in Saikyō Jump's June 2014 )

The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success. Insanity runs in my family. It practically gallops.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72267: Dec 18th 2017 at 7:26:08 AM

Grade II and III are kind of incomplete SS 2's. They boost power, but at the cost of speed.

Goku probably figured that if he couldn't maintain that level of power, learning to better utilize SS 1 would have been the best bet. But even that wasn't enough to beat Cell.

SS 2 is a perfected Grade II/III. Which is why Trunks exclaims how Gohan was able to raise his power without losing any speed.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#72268: Dec 18th 2017 at 8:50:13 AM

Goku mentioned to Caulifla and I think Vegeta reminded Future Trunks that Grades 2 and 3 also suck in terms of stamina. So while 2 doesn't lower speed, the stamina thing is presumably its major failing.

edited 18th Dec '17 8:50:33 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#72269: Dec 18th 2017 at 8:53:32 AM

The way I see it, Goku and Gohan became overall stronger than Vegeta and Trunks because they had a balanced training rather than forcing a transformation; they'd be stronger in base as well: Vegeta worked on a stronger multiplier, Goku worked on a stronger base.

Also, ends up being quite funny how the key for beating the androids wasn't a form beyond Super Saiyan, but rather training and becoming used to Super Saiyan.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#72270: Dec 18th 2017 at 9:00:07 AM

I think it's interesting that Super Saiyan 1 had such a long way to go to master it while Super Saiyan 2 had almost no mastery needed between it and 3. Like, Goku got like 20 times stronger in the process of mastering Super Saiyan 1, but less than a 1/3 times stronger between 2 and 3.

GOI god of insanity from everywhere/nowhere Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
god of insanity
#72271: Dec 18th 2017 at 9:05:16 AM

funny enough SS 2 does have a more powerful form you can unlock threw training or in vegats case in the manga by going rage mode and somehow keeping your rage your rage boost as something you can access when you calm down(this is even stronger)

This form is creativity called Strengthened Super Saiyan 2 and the weakest we have see it was a match for SS 3

The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success. Insanity runs in my family. It practically gallops.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#72272: Dec 18th 2017 at 9:22:18 AM

Anyone notice how Gohan played the same role as Cabba did before getting taken out?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#72273: Dec 18th 2017 at 9:23:09 AM

They have basically the same haircut too.

XMenMutant22 The Feline Follies of Felix the Cat Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#72275: Dec 18th 2017 at 11:56:39 AM

Hey now, that's not really a fair comparison...

...Cabba actually delivered when he said that, and beat his opponent by himself.


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