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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#71851: Dec 15th 2017 at 10:55:51 AM

And Future Gohan's not even dead anymore.

Just....... obliterated.

edited 15th Dec '17 10:56:20 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#71852: Dec 15th 2017 at 11:03:45 AM

[up][up]and[up]

I no rite?

I mean, I get that that's kinda Toriyama's thing: not doing what people expect (due to being a contrarian by his own admission), but this time he went too fucking far.

I know he cares more about getting the story from a to b than how much sense it makes (or what it does to the characters while going there) but what he did to Future Trunks was the biggest load of shit I've ever seen.

...sometimes, I think I might not like this series as much as I used to.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#71853: Dec 15th 2017 at 12:19:32 PM

It's for the best you hold on to that feeling. Nostalgia is very prominent around this fandom.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#71854: Dec 15th 2017 at 12:48:36 PM

I did like the ending for asking the question of "How do you kill someone who's immortal?" and then responding with "You freaking don't."

This song needs more love.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#71855: Dec 15th 2017 at 12:50:47 PM

Oh please, just because the sequel series is fucked up does not degrade the original series qualities that much.

Sure DBZ wasn't perfect but its not like Super somehow makes it worse.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#71856: Dec 15th 2017 at 12:54:20 PM

It can help magnify the old flaws, though.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#71857: Dec 15th 2017 at 12:54:30 PM

...

Well, the internet would agree...but in most cases, we should disregard the internet anyway, so your point stands.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#71858: Dec 15th 2017 at 2:10:27 PM

I'd argue that the problems in Super started with Buu. Characters get power ups way too easily (Ultimate Gohan and especially Goten and Trunks), characters are railroaded back into their original roles at the expense of development, a weak villain, and so on.

And yes, Trunks somehow managed to get both an asspull win and an unsatisfying loss. I don't know why they didn't simply have him learn SSB or get God Ki in some other way. I mean, he's being doing nothing but train as well, he's a lot more serious about fighting, he worked together with the Kais a lot more closely so God Ki isn't totally out of the question. Just explain it, there are dozens of ways you could have him power up in a legitimate fashion.

As for Zamasu, just have him be killed or permanently incapcitated by fusing with the mortal Goku Black and then getting the shit kicked out of him. It makes sense, it isn't totally villain ball, it's Laser-Guided Karma and I don't think any of us would have complained as much about that resolution compared to what they did.

edited 15th Dec '17 2:40:18 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#71859: Dec 15th 2017 at 2:31:29 PM

I don't think a lot of people have issues with Super because Super is basically the personification of how a lot of fans saw Dragon Ball anyway.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#71860: Dec 15th 2017 at 2:39:28 PM

I don't know who you've seen but I've seen *loads* of people with problems with Super, especially the Goku Black arc, mainly the Super anime (as opposed to the manga, which has generally gotten a better reception from what I've seen).

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#71861: Dec 15th 2017 at 2:42:11 PM

Yes, many people have issues with these things. Many people don't. These statements are not contradictory, and I'm stating that one of the reasons the people who have no issues with these things are like that is because they assume things have always been this way.

edited 15th Dec '17 2:42:51 PM by LSBK

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#71862: Dec 15th 2017 at 2:52:47 PM

Hmm, I guess so. A lot of the characters have been [[Flanderized]].

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Envyus Since: Jun, 2011
#71863: Dec 15th 2017 at 3:07:13 PM

[up][up][up]I have seen the opposite. Were people like the Anime version of the Goku Black Arc much more.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#71864: Dec 15th 2017 at 3:33:29 PM

The ending made the whole thing worth it.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#71865: Dec 15th 2017 at 4:25:52 PM

@LSBK

I know it was true for me until I learned of the the more intricate details go into the Dragon Ball that I was rethinking about Dragon Ball and my relation to it

"Mai waifu."
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#71866: Dec 15th 2017 at 4:27:19 PM

Nostalgia is very prominent in this fandom becuase it's probably the only reason anyone is watching Super. Nostalgia is not a bad thing.

The problems observed in the first few story arcs of Super would make any other work abysmal/unwatchable. We're watching because, deep down, some small part of us wants to hear Masako Nozawa go, "Kaaa... meeeey... ha....meeeey...haaah! for the 160th time. Because watching the Father-Son Galick Gun is fanservice come true, finally seeing the humans and Piccolo do something again even though they are largely irrelevant combat-wise is fun. Heck, having Freeza back, it's all meant to play to nostalgia.

I would hope its nostalgia driving most of us because the only other explanation is insanity.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71867: Dec 15th 2017 at 4:29:33 PM

@Trunks' losses at the end of the Zamasu arc:

While I'm not so down on it as some other people here, I did find myself wondering if the whole thing might've originally been intended as a vehicle to get F. Trunks and Mai into the main cast, only for the plan to change halfway through while the ending did not.

As it is, F. Trunks loses everything and is forced to stay in the main timeline, then before any decent amount of plot can be made out of that they give him everything back in an awkward and abrupt solution that, itself, has issues and potential which the story does not dwell or elaborate on. If felt somewhat like spending a whole arc setting up a plot twist, and then when that point finally comes clearing it up as hastily as possible.

edited 15th Dec '17 4:29:40 PM by KnownUnknown

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#71868: Dec 15th 2017 at 4:42:04 PM

I can understand why they didn't want F. Trunks in the central cast - as much as I like him, the main cast is already stuffed with Saiyans.

[up][up]Yep, U6 arc aside, it's all been pretty eh. Super's annoying like that. We think we can dismiss it as garbage then Piccolo will have a vision of Nail and Kami and suddenly we all go all gooey eyed.

edited 15th Dec '17 4:47:31 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#71869: Dec 15th 2017 at 5:01:28 PM

Well...it could make kid Trunks less useful.

Nobody wants that...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#71870: Dec 15th 2017 at 5:02:25 PM

Kid Trunks has done jack shit in Super to be perfectly frank. I think he might have fought some of Freeza's soldiers, and that's about it.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#71871: Dec 15th 2017 at 5:20:24 PM

But even less useful.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#71872: Dec 15th 2017 at 5:23:58 PM

He's never hesitated to shrink the level of usefulness of a character before.

Why suddenly care now?

Sometimes I think Toriyama keeps a whole island of buses to throw some of his characters under.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#71873: Dec 15th 2017 at 5:26:12 PM

Eh I don't blame him that much.

Its clear he's not that involved in Super, just giving out the basic outlines & character designs.

I mean the only reason we got Super in the first place is cause its damage control for Evolution tarnishing the brand.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#71874: Dec 15th 2017 at 5:26:15 PM

End of Z already established that Goten and Trunks give up fighting, so expecting them to do anything was always a pipe dream.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#71875: Dec 15th 2017 at 5:35:05 PM

[up][up]

You think I'm just talking about Super.

The guy is more than willing to hose his characters for the plot he wants.

Lets not forget our favourite punching bag/desert bandit.

And of course, for a more serious example, Gohan.

Poor Bulma was basically superfluous once they got to Namek, with her only role (piloting the ship) literally being blown up once they set foot on the planet.

Chi-chi is...well, she's there to be a mom.

There are many characters who get full arcs, and there are many who don't get anything but the cold hard shaft right up the hind quarters.

One Strip! One Strip!

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