TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#71701: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:18:16 PM

@Yakuzu: Too many writers fall into the trap of, "my villain should be threatening, so I'll make him goddamned fucking unstoppable until the hero pulls a power-up out of his ass".

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#71702: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:20:30 PM

Does that really apply to Freezerator though?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71703: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:21:04 PM

I'm not going to say Toriyama handled Freeza particularly well, just laying out what his intentions were. He wanted to make a villain so absurdly overpowered that it would take a literal miracle for the main characters to win, and that's what he did.

I understand that's not everyone's cup of yea, just pointing out his intentions.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#71704: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:21:21 PM

"I mean, I don't see anything wrong with having a villain who gives the main characters trouble. Isn't that kind of the point?"

Tien gave Goku trouble. Piccolo Jr. gave Goku trouble. Vegeta gave Goku and company trouble. I like those fights. Because the balance of power changes organically. Sometimes the villain has the upper hand, sometimes it's the hero who does, based on what they do. Vegeta and Goku fight, Goku uses the Kaioken. Vegeta uses the Great Ape transformation. Goku (and Krillin, and Gohan) uses the spirit bomb, and so on.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#71705: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:22:39 PM

Yes, you like fights where the heroes actually stand a chance...

That's perfectly fine...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#71706: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:23:24 PM

Hey Frieza's a beloved icon so Toriyama did him pretty good all things considered.

[up][up] Frieza's more of a juggernaut which is a different beast. Its a role Broly has too.

[up] Nothing wrong with a little despair every once & a while. tongue

edited 13th Dec '17 8:23:53 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71707: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:23:40 PM

Then what would make Freeza stand out from those previous fights if it played out the same way? The entire point of Freeza was to establish was that he wasnt like any of Goku's previous fights.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#71708: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:24:42 PM

Gohan and Kuririn were stronger than that. Their power continued to increase after the ritual, and with Gohan's rage he could even match Freeza briefly.

They were mostly strong enough to avoid being instantly killed, but not even to threaten Freeza into usibg his full power. Freeza nearly killed Kuririn outright, but Dende saved him, and Gohan was a lot hardier.

Call it boring if you subjectively feel that (I'm not a big fan of that stretch myself) but it's not like Freeza held the Villain Ball for not going all out from the start or instantly killing them.

Hell, he was being pretty cautious anyway - he transformed even when he had the upper hand as long as something appeared threatening enough.

edited 13th Dec '17 8:25:38 PM by Saiga

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#71709: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:25:18 PM

What would've really been cool is if he killed 2 people....

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#71710: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:25:57 PM

[up] Vegeta & Dende don't count?

Wait was that sarcasm?

edited 13th Dec '17 8:26:28 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#71711: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:26:44 PM

When it comes down to it, Frieza is just the culmination of something that had already been apparently in the series: the massive Power Creep.

Vegeta and Nappa kinda tipped i, what with the latter being completely unassailable by everyone by Goku, and the former requiring the series to avert it's tendency for one on one fights and have everyone dog pile him (as well as having the new techniques Goku learn not ever win him the fight, though the Kaioken came close).

Then comes Frieza, who renders all that completely worthless through raw brute strength, and unfortunately, Toriyama decided to keep raising that bar higher and higher.

Or maybe it is fortunate. I don't know.

Whatever the case, it is what it is. I will say this much, I don't think it got quite that bad after Frieza: Cell still took a lot of damage even if he was taking less than Goku, and Buu was actually depowered, but also rendered more dangerous via losing all sanity.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71712: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:28:17 PM

Toriyama mostly relies on riling emotions in the audience than relying on internal logic and consistency a lot of the time I notice. That's why he tends to change the rules of how the universe works a lot.

He seems more interested in emotionally manipulating his audience (and I say that in the most neutral way possible) than telling a logical and coherent story a lot of time.

If you prefer more "intelligence" to your Shonen then I can understand why that wouldn't appeal to you.

The enter Namek arc isn't particularly well-written in hindsight, but it was good at getting us emotionally invested in what was going on due to how the emotions played out in the fight.

I mean, did anyone seeing Goku go Super Saiyan for the first time really care if it was a dues ex machina? All that mattered was that Freeza was about to get his shit pushed in.

edited 13th Dec '17 8:29:50 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#71713: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:28:29 PM

5x [up] Well yes because Goku's previous fights didn't suck ass tongue Oh, who am I kidding some of them did.

But my problem with Freeza is that there's a sort of line between him dominating, then Goku gets SSJ and it's suddenly Goku dominating. Had the final battle been more even (and the anime makes it more even than the manga) I would feel a bit better about it. Like, had Goku achieved this form and then barely kills Freeza, instead of utterly stomping Freeza.

Like, I otherwise love Freeza as a villain, his buildup is great and he has the most fully realised personality of any DB villain. I even like his fighting style. But I just don't like the final fight because it drags on for ages without a lot changing then suddenly changes and just sort of... ends.

edited 13th Dec '17 8:29:05 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#71714: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:30:28 PM

[up][up]

Well we've had the intelligence argument as well. I do think you have a point considering what we've heard about the bird man (my new nickname for Toriyama).

Hell, he was being pretty cautious anyway - he transformed even when he had the upper hand as long as something appeared threatening enough.

Being cautious would have been just death beaming them and ending it even in his second form. He wasn't being cautious at all, or he'd have just killed Goku when the latter was charging up the Spirit Bomb, instead of needing to see it to realize he needed to stop fucking around.

edited 13th Dec '17 8:30:43 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71715: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:30:45 PM

[up][up]To each their own mate, I understand your complaints. I just don't agree that the fight needed to be "improved" or what we got was necessarily terrible.

edited 13th Dec '17 8:31:01 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#71716: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:34:29 PM

Wait was that sarcasm?

No, I legit forget about Kriller and 2 more kills...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#71717: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:36:42 PM

Goku barely beating Freeza with Super Saiyan would lack the carthasis that Freeza being utterly humilated brought. I'm not sure 100% Freeza was even needed, I could have totally accepted Goku kicking the shit out of Freeza as one-sidedly as he did before that. Even fights aren't always becessatily better.

[up][up][up][up]I don't think the story is deliberately inconsistent and the accidental inconsistencies aren't that big at all.

If I was looking for an 'intelligent' series I probably wouldn't look at shonen. But what people classify as 'intelligent' often comes across as rather artbitrary and very self-congratulatory.

[up][up] False dichotomy. Instantly finishing things isn't the only way to be cautious, his method of caution was always making sure he had a big lead in power rather than risking an even fight. I'm not arguing he is taking the most pragmatic approach, but he was definitely excercising caution while still endulging himself.

edited 13th Dec '17 8:39:16 PM by Saiga

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71718: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:38:55 PM

I think they're big enough to count as flaws for the series though. I'm not saying the series is lesser for it mind you, just that it's got its cons just like any other work.

Its hard to understand what classifies as a "intelligent" seires.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#71719: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:39:42 PM

Seriously what is fucking intelligent?

That word is thrown around so much.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#71720: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:40:29 PM

Oh, yeah, the inconsistencies have always bugged me. I don't think they're much related to Toriyama's method of appealing to audience emotions so much as they are just fumbles made along the way

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#71721: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:43:36 PM

Inconsistencies? A combination of those and cop outs crop up a lot. Look up some of Plague of Gripes videos on YT about it.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#71722: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:44:52 PM

And he certainly made a lot of fumbles...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#71723: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:46:13 PM

I mean, is the series any less enjoyable because of them?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#71724: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:46:56 PM

Nothings perfect after all.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#71725: Dec 13th 2017 at 8:47:30 PM

I will admit that I never looked deeper into the flaws of Dragon Ball until after Super came along that its flaws became more apparent. For all intents and purposes, Dragon Ball was good at getting you invested emotionally.

edited 13th Dec '17 8:48:31 PM by GAP

"Mai waifu."

Total posts: 130,800
Top