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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#71276: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:02:28 PM

These universes were blank slates for creating new challenges to the strongest heroes, and so far only 2 of the universes in this tournament ever got that far. It's just plain not interesting that the other 5 universes in this tournament produced fighters that couldn't even challenge the Android Saga characters.

edited 9th Dec '17 8:06:27 PM by VeryMelon

Rynnec Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#71277: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:03:02 PM

[up]x3 That was in a tournament with strict rules and regulations, and a match that was blatantly rigged to be in Mag's favor at that.

edited 9th Dec '17 8:03:36 PM by Rynnec

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#71278: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:04:33 PM

Fuck if its plot convince & rendering all of Goku & Vegeta's training irrelevant.

I want an entertaining & epic story with interesting characters so that means universes full of badasses not scrubs.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#71279: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:05:16 PM

I don't see why fighters need to be the strongest MFers around to be considered interesting. All I see are tons of Fanfic Fuel characters.

edited 9th Dec '17 8:05:52 PM by MightyMatilda

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#71280: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:05:19 PM

[up][up][up] After all this time, a blank slate isn't good enough (looking at you, Jiren). I would want threats to actually be developed, because of the amount of development that it took to get to where Goku and Vegeta where. Not just introduce them as having been off-screen the entire time.

edited 9th Dec '17 8:05:36 PM by Saiga

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#71281: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:06:47 PM

So much for the Tournament of Power being about "strategy". It seems as though that as "subversive" as Dragon Ball is, you can certainly predict what direction Toriyama is going to take with his story. I said this before but I am saying it again.

"Mai waifu."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71282: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:07:01 PM

For a while I've wondered if, in writing Super, Toriyama and co regret opening it with a story in which Goku and Vegeta obtain the power of the gods, and that if they had they chance they might have had that be something that's led up to for a long period of time.

They don't want to run a plot that embraces it where Goku has to choose between leaving mortality behind or at least explores what it means to have godly power, and they clearly don't want to introduce a ton of characters with literally divine levels of power, but they have to introduce characters of Goku's caliber to keep the story interesting and want to keep running ideas like this, so they repeatedly jump through hoops trying to both escalate and bizarrely not escalate at the same time, leading to loads of wasted potential when it comes to character design and plot design, and several conflicts that only work because Goku has to not take them seriously until its too late.

At the very least, there would be less of a problem with introducing characters in other universes who can actually challenge Goku if he wasn't rapidly approaching Beerus' level. They wouldn't have had to jump through such repeated hoops when it came to the Universe 6 Saiyans, for one, though then that was the result of several writing fumbles at once.

edited 9th Dec '17 8:09:31 PM by KnownUnknown

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#71283: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:09:04 PM

Honestly, even Goku and Vegeta's pre-God power should have been something very difficult to challenge, to say nothing of the likes of Gotenks or U. Gohan. And they've got a huge gap between them and the weaker characters.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#71284: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:10:28 PM

"Blank State" meaning Toriyama had room to introduce new characters that could challenge Goku. I didn't mean characters lacking in personality or character.

Jiren would be fine if he was introduced in the anime the same way he was in the manga. Toppo has lots of personality and is on Goku and Vegeta's level, we already have Hit building a rival dynamic with Goku while being on his level as well. It's not hard to make stronger characters with personality and character, so there's literally no excuse for the tournament being filled with non threats.

edited 9th Dec '17 8:12:14 PM by VeryMelon

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#71285: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:10:32 PM

The problem is they have tons of characters but it's clear from the start that it's Jiren and his team that matter. The rest are basically fodder. You could easily have Jiren just sweep the entire field since Goku wouldn't have a chance to learn UIO yet and... huh.

Why didn't Jiren just do that?

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#71286: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:13:21 PM

Going by the manga, Jiren might see elimating fighters as the same as killing them. He's been introduced as someone who would never consider killing anyone and would accept Zeno's judgement as fate.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#71287: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:13:27 PM

[up][up][up] I know what you meant, that's not why I mentioned Jiren. I meant that Jiren had very little build up or justification for his power.

It's not their personality I have an issue with. It's not knowing how they got so powerful to challenge the people who we've been following this escalation with for so long.

edited 9th Dec '17 8:13:38 PM by Saiga

agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#71288: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:13:33 PM

[up][up][up]

Out of character for him, base on what was shown in the manga.

I don't why people think that if each universe had their own god fighter it would be just plot convenience. It would at least mean the Z-Fighters would have someone threatening among their 5 god scale fighters.

edited 9th Dec '17 8:13:58 PM by agent-trunks

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71289: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:15:30 PM

I also feel like Toei has approached this plot like they did the movies, and that Jiren is written by them like one of their movie villains (and a lot of the minor characters like the movie minions). Big, tough, powerful, no personality, just an enemy prizefighter who looks intimidating that our heroes get a final round knockout on after a lot of posturing.

edited 9th Dec '17 8:17:33 PM by KnownUnknown

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#71290: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:16:09 PM

They definitely shouldn't have established which team was the strongest so early on. Each team should have had their specialty.

The U6 arc was far superior in this regard. Anyone else think it's the strongest DBS arc so far?

(^Manga Jiren by all accounts is far superior to anime Jiren and has an actual personality and motives)

edited 9th Dec '17 8:17:28 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#71291: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:18:02 PM

God bless Toyotaro for making Super-Jiren canon.

I can't tell if Tohei is trying to make him mysterious or just generally not trying.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#71292: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:18:59 PM

Because God fighters are supposed to be very rare and U 7 only just recently hit that tier. It really ruins that importance if the other Gods actually knew they had God-tier fighters this entire time.

The Boo arc established that everything from FP Super Saiyan up is meant to be an amazing level to the Kaioshin. Even if you excuse it with East Kaioshin being a rookie, that really ruins a lot of moments from that arc for the sake of new characters.

That some universes have had these secretive, God level or higher fighters can still work with that. But if they've all got it... it's not special, and much of what we've been reading has been retconned into being a lie.

Besides, if every universe had introduced a God-tier fighter in the same arc, then there is no way you'd get proper development for them and there'd be too many to pace things properly. All the non-God fighters would take a backseat to the God level free-for-all.

[up][up] What? It was always super obvious in U 6 that Goku and Vegeta were waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead of the enemy teams and were just dicking around.

edited 9th Dec '17 8:19:52 PM by Saiga

Larfleeze Agent Orange Since: May, 2009
Agent Orange
#71293: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:20:46 PM

They don’t need to be God tier. They just have to be not a complete joke.

[up]Hit beat Vegeta easily and would’ve done the same to Goku if the Galaxy King didn’t just tell Goku what his power was. And even then Hit was holding back due to not being able to use his strongest techniques.

edited 9th Dec '17 8:24:24 PM by Larfleeze

Do you know what people want the most? Something somebody else has.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#71294: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:22:06 PM

[up][up] So they basically fucked themselves since the beginning.

Just written themselves into a big ol' hole.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#71295: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:22:39 PM

[up][up]They have to be God tier because Goku and Vegeta are, actually. So is Freeza and maybe Gohan.

This issue of making God tier fighters "special" could be solved by giving each universe a God of Destruction candidate, like Toppo is. That way at least 1 person on each team has a God tier fighter without it making the achievement of that tier feel unimportant.

edited 9th Dec '17 8:26:32 PM by VeryMelon

Larfleeze Agent Orange Since: May, 2009
Agent Orange
#71296: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:26:54 PM

Or since teamwork has been built up from the start as being vital to the tournament have them actually use teamwork to be even a modest threat. Have it be Saiyan Saga only in reverse with the heroes being stronger and the villains using every desperate trick and strategy they can to stay in the fight.

edited 9th Dec '17 8:27:36 PM by Larfleeze

Do you know what people want the most? Something somebody else has.
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#71297: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:27:51 PM

It's possible to be a threat to someone without being stronger than them. Like how Green Lantern is an ordinary human, but he would very likely win a fight against Superman. So, if DBS gave people weird powers, and those characters could use those weird powers intelligently...

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#71298: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:30:11 PM

[up] Confidently, I recently watched an animation that had Vegeta curb-stomping GL with less than 1% of his power.

Got me really pissed off after watching it cause of how bullshit it was.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#71299: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:32:52 PM

[up]

You know DBZ is some of the most bias community out there right?

Also given the value of "special" you guys know we're talking about the multiverse right?

It's possible to be a threat to someone without being stronger than them. Like how Green Lantern is an ordinary human, but he would very likely win a fight against Superman. So, if DBS gave people weird powers, and those characters could use those weird powers intelligently...

That's not true at all. Parallax beated Supes because the plot demand it. You have any idea how many people Superman & suddenly we're suppose think they're a serious threat?

edited 9th Dec '17 8:39:00 PM by agent-trunks

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#71300: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:33:02 PM

[up][up][up]Bad example. All Lanterns are basically high tier cosmic fighters, as is Superman.

[up]I'm just trying to find a compromise for the sake of debate. I couldn't care less about the God Tier being special.

edited 9th Dec '17 8:33:49 PM by VeryMelon


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