TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#7101: Jun 30th 2014 at 1:20:35 PM

The decision to become Majin Vegeta was stupid as hell, but once that decision was made, Goku didn't have much in the way of alternatives to fighting Majin Vegeta. I mean, at that point, what was he supposed to do? Would Vegeta have accepted a refusal? Would he be lenient enough to allow a time-out? His behavior certainly didn't suggest so.

Also, Imperfect Cell wasn't that Magnificent of a Bastard. His progression to Perfect Form relied on three separate bad decisions. Vegeta had to make a decision to help Cell achieve his Perfect Form - the most mind-numbingly stupid protagonist decision in the history of the franchise - while Android 18 made a decision not to flee and Krillin made a decision not to activate her self-destruct. Trunks was the only person present on the scene that wasn't acting like a moron.

In retrospect, Android 18 could have saved the world forever if she'd just gone ahead and killed Vegeta after breaking his arm. Both Cell and Majin Buu were dependant on Vegeta to ever become a threat in the first place. Goku has it wrong; the Earth was repeatedly placed in danger because Vegeta existed, not Goku.

edited 30th Jun '14 1:24:58 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7102: Jun 30th 2014 at 1:34:06 PM

[up] Vegeta was always insanely competitive with Goku and would go to great lengths just one-up him, so him becoming Majin Vegeta certainly doesn't feel out of left field, but still was somewhat surprising.

Imperfect Cell was totally a Magnificent Bastard. He ran rings around the Z-Fighters and actually came up with a good strategy of defeating the Z-Fighters and absorbing the androids. He didn't go at them all guns blazing like any other villain would, he thought, "If I fight the Z-Fighters now, I'm gonna get killed! Fuck that!" Solar Flare, run away, hid his power level, absorbed thousand upon thousands of humans, becomes the strongest character in the show, finds the androids, dominates everyone, absorbs Android 17, becomes on step closer to his goal. If that's not the strategy of a Magnificent Bastard I don't know what is...

Well the main reason the Android/Cell Arc even exist is because of what Goku did in the Red Ribbon Army Arc.

edited 30th Jun '14 1:53:27 PM by FireShadow

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#7103: Jun 30th 2014 at 1:48:14 PM

Oh, that Cell. When I hear "Imperfect Cell", I always think of the phase between his absorption of 17 and 18, where Vegeta helped him absorb 18.

I still wouldn't call him a Magnificent Bastard, since I'm not sure his avoidance of the protagonists was really a tactical plan, so much as just something that happened. He was absorbing humans to strengthen himself, but he also didn't hesitate to just walk right out there and fight Piccolo. Hiding his power level while strengthening himself wasn't any kind of deviously masterful plotting, it was just Cell not being stupid enough to pick fights he knows he can't win.

Even ignoring that, nothing about what you describe is a Magnificent Bastard. A Magnificent Bastard is a brilliant, charismatic, deviously Genre Savvy villain who doesn't need to hide from the heroes, he can do is villainy in plain sight and does so with a certain magnificent style and panache, then gets away with it scot free. A Magnificent Bastard doesn't sneak around and try to hide his activity, he gleefully shoves it in the protagonist's face, knowing the protagonist can't touch him. Frieza was closer to a Magnificent Bastard than Cell was.

Well the main reason the Android/Cell Arc even exist is because of what Goku did in the Red Ribbon Army Arc.

Yes. Goku's decision to spare Vegeta's life paid off hugely in both the entire Namek arc and against Androids 19 and 20, as well as the conception of Trunks, both present and future variants.

After 17 and 18 awakened, however, his continued existence caused more harm than good. If 18 had killed Vegeta right then and there in the fight where she broke his arm, Cell would never have attained his Perfect Form and Majin Buu would never have hatched. Vegeta's positive contributions after that point - distracting Perfect Cell during his Beam Struggle with SS 2 Gohan, becoming half of Vegito, keeping Kid Buu busy while Goku and Hercule accumulate the Spirit Bomb that would destroy him and, in fact, being the one who came up with that idea in the first place - are all undermined by the fact that the villain only escalated to this point because Vegeta helped it along.

edited 30th Jun '14 1:57:39 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7104: Jun 30th 2014 at 2:27:44 PM

[up] What?! Freeza wasn't a Magnificent Bastard, nowhere near it. He was Smug Super at best. Imperfect Cell was a Magnificent Bastard because he smart enough to know that hiding from the heroes was the right thing to do, because if he didn't hide from the heroes he would have been killed. And obviously hiding from the heroes worked immensely in his favor and he knew that would be case.

When Cell first fought Piccolo, he thought to himself, "This should be easy". Then Piccolo starts tanking every move he throws at him and Piccolo starts kicking his ass, leading to Cell having to fight dirty just to get the advantage. And even when he did the advantage Piccolo still Out-Gambitted him and Cell couldn't believe it. Then the reinforcement arrives for Piccolo and Cell thinks, "Shit, I'm gonna get nowhere if I take on all these guys, I need to get stronger. But first I need get off the radar." He then Solar flared the Z-Fighters, high tailed it and lowered his power lever so no one could find him and kill him. He then prepared himself for taking on the Z-Fighters and eventually the Androids by absorbing a crap load of humans. He then pin pointed the Androids location, beat everyone's asses and absorbs Android 17. There's now way he could have pulled that off if didn't he didn't think several steps ahead or at least come up with a strategy.

If Freeza was in that position he would have pulled a Leeroy Jenkins. He did it several times on Namek....

edited 30th Jun '14 2:47:26 PM by FireShadow

TheSexyOne Since: Jun, 2014
#7105: Jun 30th 2014 at 2:38:16 PM

Yeah I can't really think of anything that gives Freiza Magnificent Bastard status. Cell at least gets points for playing with Vegeta's ego to achieve perfect form.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#7106: Jun 30th 2014 at 2:42:35 PM

[up][up]Actually, if Vegeta were killed by Android 18, it's unlikely anyone would have been around to stop Semi-Perfect Cell from absorbing 18 anyway. Trunks wouldn't have been able to get as strong most likely without training with Vegeta, and the only other person at the time strong enough to stop Cell was... Vegeta. So they'd probably be facing Perfect Cell whether Vegeta died or not. After that he stops contributing, though. Even his distraction against Super Perfect Cell wouldn't have even been necessary had he not flown off the handle at Trunks' death and caused Gohan to take a shot for him.

edited 30th Jun '14 2:43:49 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#7107: Jun 30th 2014 at 2:56:02 PM

Oy guys, there aren't any official pics yet, but apparently the two secret characters for this new set of DBH cards are Majin LSSJ-3 Broly and Babidi Buu.

These what-if transformations are getting crazier and crazier. tongue

edited 30th Jun '14 2:56:13 PM by Rinsankajugin

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#7108: Jun 30th 2014 at 3:00:00 PM

Babidi Buu? Like, if Buu absorbed Babidi? That's funny.

Next What-If transformation should be Majin Baby Hirudetzunote  (Super Saiyan Android 13 (Scouter version) (SSG Future Raditz absorbed) absorbed), with Old Kai's power boost.

edited 30th Jun '14 3:04:23 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7109: Jun 30th 2014 at 3:05:26 PM

Uh guys, about Goku vs. Majin Vegeta, are you forgetting that Goku purposefully stayed in SSJ 2 form? He was "evenly matched" with Vegeta then and Vegeta even calls him out on holding back when they meet again.

SSJ 3 Goku could have oneshotted Majin Vegeta, end of fight, no Buu revival.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7110: Jun 30th 2014 at 3:21:24 PM

[up] One shotting Vegeta would lead to Buu's revival instantly. Remember it was all about how much damage that would be inflicted on Vegeta that would be determine how quick Majin Buu would be brought back life. I imagine one shotting somebody would involve inflicting a lot of damage on the person.

edited 30th Jun '14 3:22:04 PM by FireShadow

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#7111: Jun 30th 2014 at 3:27:41 PM

...I thought that Vegeta, being a Majin, couldn't give energy.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#7112: Jun 30th 2014 at 3:49:46 PM

I can't really blame Goku for not wanting to kill Majin Boo because if he were to come back from the dead for one day and just kills the Big Bad and goes back to the afterlife, you have one hell of a Broken Aesop right there and to be fair, the new generation really did need to learn how to fight their own battles if Goku wasn't around, or else Earth would be fucked.

I always felt this way as well. Goku's logic did kinda make sense. Though at the time, he didn't realize that Gohan was still alive, but still, with Mystic Gohan and Gotenks, Earth should have been well protected for the future.

Unfortunately, Gohan dropped the ball and Gotenks messed around then got undermined by a factor he never expected (namely, Super Saiyan 3 burning up the fusion time too quickly).

As for what he could have done about Majin Vegeta, once he saw that Vegeta was matching him at Super Saiyan 2, he should have immediately jumped to Super Saiyan 3 (lets ignore the flaws to the technique for now) and stomped the latter. He knew time was not on his side, and the longer the fight went, the more of a chance that his energy would let Buu awaken. He should have prioritized beating Vegeta as quickly as possible, and the best way to do that would be to jump to a higher power level and form and dance a jig on Vegeta's skull, but he held back because he left himself start enjoying the fight as well.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#7113: Jun 30th 2014 at 4:07:17 PM

[up] Ignoring the fact that the amount of raw energy rolling off of Goku when he transforms into a Super Saiyan 3 would be more than enough to revive Majin Buu twice over.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#7114: Jun 30th 2014 at 4:17:09 PM

....

I thought it only worked if they were damaged by one of Babidi's Servants.

I mean, that's the reason they didn't get much energy from Gohan when he fought Dabura, despite the fact that he was kinda losing that fight. Otherwise, the moment he (and Goku earlier) went Super Saiyan, they would have gotten a truckload of power.

One Strip! One Strip!
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7115: Jun 30th 2014 at 4:30:52 PM

[up][up] Yeah, if Goku went Super Saiyan 3 and beat the hell out of Vegeta, Majin Boo gets revived instantly and you also have to remember Goku was still dead at that point, if he goes Super Saiyan 3 he loses a large amount, if not all of the time, he has left in the mortal realm. If Goku doesn't fight Vegeta at all, Vegeta goes a killing spree and other than Goku, who will be able to stop him? It's a no win situation, Goku pretty much had to fight Vegeta.

And the record the fight lasts way shorter in the manga, like only few minutes at tops and after there is more than enough energy for Majin Boo to be revived, Goku going Super Saiyan 3 would have been overkill.

edited 30th Jun '14 4:34:37 PM by FireShadow

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#7116: Jun 30th 2014 at 4:32:00 PM

Again, I don't think that was how the energy collecting worked.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#7117: Jun 30th 2014 at 4:34:55 PM

Plus he didn't know that about Super Saiyan 3.

Yes, we know that now, but at the time, he had no reason not to use it to finish things quickly, unless he had reason to believe that Transforming would let them absorb energy himself, which I don't think he did.

edited 30th Jun '14 4:35:10 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7118: Jun 30th 2014 at 4:37:30 PM

[up][up] Well, Supreme Kai specifically states in the manga and anime that every injury inflicted on Vegeta is turned into energy that in aided in reviving Majin Boo. That's why Supreme Kai went out of his way to stop Goku from fighting Vegeta. Of course Goku already saw Vegeta willingness to kill innocent people to get Goku to fight him, so Goku wasn't gonna let anything get in his way.

edited 30th Jun '14 4:46:39 PM by FireShadow

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#7119: Jun 30th 2014 at 4:38:25 PM

I thought it was only injury received by good people. Vegeta was a Majin. He didn't count.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#7120: Jun 30th 2014 at 4:44:53 PM

Actually, since Vegeta was initially one of the ones who invaded the lair, he might have been an exception.

Babidi knew how strong they all were. Why take energy from one, when he can fudge the rules a bit and get it from both.

I'll have to check that thing about the Supreme Kai saying it himself.

One Strip! One Strip!
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#7121: Jul 1st 2014 at 2:27:25 PM

I blame Krillin for Perfect Cell far more than I blame Vegeta.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#7122: Jul 1st 2014 at 2:29:38 PM

I blame Vegeta more, but Krillin is also to blame.

Come on, Krillin, you're supposed to be a veteran at this. You've been with the crew since the first resurrection. You've undergone two yourself.

"If I hit the self-destruct, it will kill 18. But I LIKE 18. Oh, well, I can always bum a wish off the Namekians. I mean, hell, either we get a new dragon or we're going to Namek anyway to wish back all the people Cell killed, and Porunga gives you THREE wishes! Click! Sorry, 18, see you in a couple months."

edited 1st Jul '14 2:32:03 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7123: Jul 1st 2014 at 2:55:18 PM

Maybe Krillin still had a conscience and didn't think that murdering someone was okay just because you can wish them back later.

I bet dying hurts.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#7124: Jul 1st 2014 at 2:57:13 PM

Krillin would know, after all.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#7125: Jul 1st 2014 at 2:57:55 PM

Oh no!

Krillin's been Yamcha'd!

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else

Total posts: 130,800
Top