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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#7076: Jun 29th 2014 at 7:16:15 PM

It's "Big Gete Star".

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#7077: Jun 29th 2014 at 7:36:27 PM

Frost Demons? Never heard that one before. I remember back in my younger days, a bunch of people in the DBZ fandom called Freiza's race "Changelings." I'm not sure where the name came from, but it was a thing.

Also, Spaghetti Star. tongue

edited 29th Jun '14 7:36:57 PM by Rinsankajugin

TheSexyOne Since: Jun, 2014
#7078: Jun 29th 2014 at 7:39:36 PM

The repeated revisions that Toriyama kept making to appease a friend who didn't like the arc ultimately resulted in Dr. Gero making senile, nonsensical decisions at a fairly constant rate.

As little sense as the whole Android/Cell saga makes under scrutiny, I'm actually kind of glad for the Executive Meddling. Android 19 and 20 did make pretty lame Big Bads on an aesthetic level. I could have probably done with Android 17 and 18 as the big bads, but I can't imagine Android 18 getting reformed if she and 17 didn't get the demotion. Plus Cell is my favorite DBZ Big Bad of the 3.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7079: Jun 29th 2014 at 7:43:29 PM

[up][up] I've heard them called Changelings as well now you mention it. That was a way long time ago.

[up] Cell is always gonna be da best.

Thank God for "extended" videos on YT.

Cell is another one "they" use a weird name for. I think h's called "Seru" by those particularly.....devoted fans.

edited 29th Jun '14 7:47:47 PM by Nikkolas

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#7080: Jun 29th 2014 at 8:14:24 PM

I really don't know any polite, eloquent, cold-hearted, narcissistic, sadistic, machiavellian inspired rulers who would sound like they are a chain smoking 60 year old.

I don't know any with audio samples I'd be able to compare to FUNI Frieza, nor any that are superhuman, bulletproof aliens that can defy gravity. So we're both going to have to agree to disagree.

-

My vote is for Majin Buu, as always.

edited 29th Jun '14 8:16:05 PM by FOFD

TheSexyOne Since: Jun, 2014
#7081: Jun 29th 2014 at 11:05:03 PM

Meh Fat Buu was a lot of fun but after that the saga got pretty boring. And I hate how Gohan got turned into the Decoy Protagonist.

Plus the Buu saga is when the show officially said Fuck You to anyone who isn't a Saiyan. HFIL we finally get a bad ass female character and other than some cool stuff in the Worlds Martial Arts Tournament she does absolutely nothing.

edited 29th Jun '14 11:05:24 PM by TheSexyOne

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#7082: Jun 29th 2014 at 11:08:42 PM

Poor non-Saiyans.

The Z fighters seemed useless enough in the Cell arc, but in the Buu saga, they got turned into jokes.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#7083: Jun 29th 2014 at 11:14:41 PM

Human Extinction Attack is one of the best things.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
DoctorDiabolical So pure. Since: Mar, 2010
So pure.
#7084: Jun 30th 2014 at 8:22:20 AM

[up] x6. I was initially underwhelmed by 19 and 20's oddball "early-1900s" designs, but they grew on me. They looked clownish yet civilized, which came off as unique and alien next to the rest of DBZ's aesthetic. Plus, their broken energy-absorption mechanic would have made the combat a more interesting affair had they lasted.

17 and 18 were generic in comparison, IMO, even more underwhelming in terms of design. Honestly, when I was a kid and heard "androids," I was hoping for designs like Hercule's student Piroshki (before he took the mask off) from the Cell Games, and none of Gero's creations were anything like that.

edited 30th Jun '14 8:29:05 AM by DoctorDiabolical

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#7085: Jun 30th 2014 at 8:24:20 AM

I didn't like Buu when I first watched it because he seemed overly silly. Also, I was 14 years old and thought "dark and gritty" automatically meant better.

Since then, I've grown up, realized that Dragon Ball was never meant to be an uber-serious fighting story, recognized the many silly elements in all of the non-Cell arcs, and my fondness for Buu has grown immensely.

Cell's taken Buu's place as my least favorite villain, as a consequence of taking himself too seriously and being overly reliant on bad decisions made by other characters - and, in turn, the plot's resolution being overly reliant on bad decisions made by Cell himself. Everyone is an idiot in the Cell Saga.

edited 30th Jun '14 8:26:40 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7086: Jun 30th 2014 at 8:45:01 AM

Cell is a Manipulative Bastard who took advantage of people and that is why he's the best and Freeza is the worst.

Hi my name's Freeza and now that I'm losing I'll pull a transformation out of my ass. Oh wait, I'm losing again, another transformation. Oh wait, I'm not losing this time but how about another transformation. Surprise, I'm only using a fraction of my power. i can get stronger any time I wish. I wish to now.

Boooooooooooring.

Cell had to use strategy to get powerful. Hell, even Buu was smarter than Freeza and had to use tactics to gain strength.

Also everyone in Dragon Ball is stupid. See Krillin not cutting off Freeza's head when he blinded him with Solar Flare. Also see the heroes using their wishes to revive Piccolo and transport him to Namek.

Also consider how incredibly simple-minded the heroes are in the Saiyan Saga. "It is beyond your power to destroy Nappa and Vegeta? Okay, how about you just short circuit their space ship so they capsize and die? How about you mess up their computer system so they fly into a star?"

The possibilities to kill them without directly effecting their bodies with the wish are endless.

edited 30th Jun '14 8:47:49 AM by Nikkolas

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#7087: Jun 30th 2014 at 8:49:42 AM

Well, Cell got plenty stupid after he became perfect.

Though that was because he had the arrogance of Frieza and Vegeta.

Then again, considering all the things he could do, I almost can't blame him for being ridiculously cocky. That and the fact that when you think about it, he can't actually be all that old. He's kinda like a big kid who suddenly received a ridiculous amount of power.

I always saw it as this:

Vegeta and Frieza wanted power; Cell was just looking for a good fight, and Buu was just bug fuck crazy most of the time.

One Strip! One Strip!
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7088: Jun 30th 2014 at 8:55:47 AM

Another advantage of Z's dub over Kai's is it explains how Cell revived better. Every cell having a life of its own and allowing him to survive makes more sense than something in his head (which was vaporized earlier) survived and allowed him to regenerate.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#7089: Jun 30th 2014 at 9:02:01 AM

King Piccolo and Vegeta also didn't have to use strategy to become powerful for their battles; they just were powerful. They're shonen villains; by nature, their purpose is not to race to keep up with the hero. The hero's objective is to catch up to them. While Namek's escalation was utterly ridiculous as far as power levels go, Frieza's role was pretty standard shonen fare; a powerful Final Adversary who is so unconscionably powerful that the mere act of arriving at his level is the challenge that the hero must face.

Toriyama shook up the formula after Goku defeated Frieza because Frieza was explicitly defined as the strongest warrior in the entire universe. Defeating him meant that Goku is now the strongest in the universe; topping that is kind of hard. Thus, for the next two arcs, we see Cell and Buu having to struggle to keep up with the protagonists rather than the other way around.

Once Goku became the strongest warrior in the universe, the villains became the underdog and had to do a lot of justifying in order to become a threat. Of the two, Majin Buu did a better job of it on account of having a better rationale for his existence and his power increases.

edited 30th Jun '14 9:05:01 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#7090: Jun 30th 2014 at 9:03:24 AM

I came to like Super Buu pretty recently. Just because he's so deliciously evil.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7091: Jun 30th 2014 at 9:33:18 AM

[up][up] You forgot King Piccolo was by far the smartest DB villain ever. What's more, while he did start off stronger than all our heroes, his initial goal was to restore his youth and get even stronger. He thus had to gather the Dragon Balls to get stronger, same as Cell had to absorb people to get stronger.

Your villains don't have to just be 100 times stronger than the last villain. You could make them have different abilities and it is those powers, as opposed to their power level, which makes them a threat. Quite frankly it got more and more absurd with DBZ where every new villain was treated like they were unstoppable but you knew as soon as the next arc rolled around someone who's a billion times stronger would appear.

I'm trying to think of a good example of villains being more diverse and that's why they are harder to beat as opposed to just being flat-out more powerful.... Maybe Rurouni Kenshin.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#7092: Jun 30th 2014 at 9:47:09 AM

Also everyone in Dragon Ball is stupid

Right here. This is about where I stopped.

edited 30th Jun '14 9:47:50 AM by FOFD

TheSexyOne Since: Jun, 2014
#7093: Jun 30th 2014 at 9:55:32 AM

Frieza commits that grand crime of just how boring a setting Namek is and that 20 episode fight with Goku dragging on and on. At least the Cell saga and Buu saga had the decency to change things up. S

No really the fight between Freiza and Goku would fill up an entire season of your average network show in the US.

edited 30th Jun '14 9:56:05 AM by TheSexyOne

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7094: Jun 30th 2014 at 9:59:08 AM

[up][up] The list of idiotic decisions in DB runs a mile long. You really shouldn't be so willingly blind.

Also I just realized - the Buu Saga is entirely Vegeta's and Goku's fault. So while Tobias has a point about the Cell Saga coming to pass because people were being dumb, the same is entirely true for the Buu Saga.

There's also Goku not finishing off Fat Buu when he could have. Also Gotenks not finishing off Super Buu when he could have.

Really, the Buu Saga is littered with dumbass decisions.

edited 30th Jun '14 10:00:29 AM by Nikkolas

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#7095: Jun 30th 2014 at 10:54:04 AM

I dunno if Gotenks could have finished off Super Buu. They were roughly equal in power, but Buu could regenerate. Gohan has no excuse for not vaporizing him before he could absorb Gotenks and Piccolo, though.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#7096: Jun 30th 2014 at 10:55:04 AM

No, I stopped because when somebody says every character involved in something I like is "stupid" with such nonchalance, arguing with them becomes an exercise in futility.

The Buu arc contains a wealth of idiotic decisions from Goku and Vegeta alike, and it is still my favorite because of its villain. But you came in all "and also, everyone in Dragonball is stupid." How audacious.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#7097: Jun 30th 2014 at 11:40:41 AM

Goku had his heart set on his legacy picking up where he left off, and to be fair to the guy, Majin Buu wasn't anything that a day or so of Hyperbolic Time Chamber training for Gotenks couldn't handle. Hell, after Goku convinced Buu to kill Babidi, he became an issue that could very easily correct itself - and pretty much all of Goku's friends were evil bastards at one point or another.

And the matter did correct itself. Majin Buu quit being a bastard and settled down for a peaceful life, courtesy of Hercule's friendship. Goku correctly judged that the childlike Majin Buu wasn't evil, just misguided and acting under the command of a legitimate bastard. For the first portion of the Buu Saga, Babidi was the villain, not Majin Buu. To destroy Majin Buu during his brief Super Saiyan 3 period would have felt wrong; he spared both Vegeta and Frieza for less.

It was Super Buu who went on to overpower Gotenks, and even then, Gotenks's battle with Super Buu, while loaded with showboating and egotistical self-aggrandizement, went south for completely unpredicted reasons: Super Saiyan 3 burned through the Fusion at a faster rate, which nobody knew would happen.

Most of the mistakes the protagonists committed were simply a failure to predict unforeseeable circumstances that would transpire, or a failure to understand mechanics that had never been invoked before. Really, the only point at which the Buu Saga was a consequence of terrible decision-making on the part of the protagonists was Vegeta becoming Majin Vegeta. The rationale behind it was ridiculous as hell, and even for a gag series, it is impossible to take Vegeta's speech of, "I wanted to embrace the EVIL IN MY HEART!" seriously.

edited 30th Jun '14 11:43:07 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7098: Jun 30th 2014 at 12:36:30 PM

[up][up] I agree with on the dismissing the idea of "everyone in Dragon Ball is stupid" comment Nikkolas made. That is an incredibly arrogant ass thing to say. I honestly think there were way more dumb decisions made in DBZ than there were in DB. The Cell Arc in my opinion being hands down the worst, I mean that arc was just an Idiot Plot. But to Cell's credit, he was one hell of a Magnificent Bastard... until he achieved his perfect. But then again by that point he had achieved his main goal, so he could pretty much do whatever the fuck he wanted.

The Majin Boo Arc is funny case. The characters were somewhat less stupid but still failed to learn from past mistakes made in the Cell Arc. Goku's obsession with the new generation defeating the Big Bad backfired big time, but I can't really blame Goku for not wanting to kill Majin Boo because if he were to come back from the dead for one day and just kills the Big Bad and goes back to the afterlife, you have one hell of a Broken Aesop right there and to be fair, the new generation really did need to learn how to fight their own battles if Goku wasn't around, or else Earth would be fucked. But I can't take anything away from Majin Boo as a villain because he was insanely unpredictable. I'm torn between whether Kid Boo or Super Boo is favorite villain. Super Boo was a Magnificent Bastard, arguably the villain best since King Piccolo and Kid Boo was essentially a villainous version of Future Trunk, he cut the bullshit and got straight to point. I think I'll give it to Super Boo on this occasion because he was so damn close to winning and only lost because Goku got insanely lucky with Vegeta being brought back to life only seconds before Goku was about to fuse with Mr Satan.

edited 30th Jun '14 1:01:08 PM by FireShadow

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7099: Jun 30th 2014 at 12:58:48 PM

I'm sorry but the Buu Saga is a much bigger Idiot Plot than Cell Saga.

For one simple reason.

Supreme Kai: You guys fighting? IT WILL END THE FUCKING WORLD AND UNIVERSE. The fate of existence means more than your egos!

Goku: Don't care.

Vegeta: Me neither.

We fight now.

Buu is released, kills everybody, and WHO could have seen this coming? If only there was some sort of warning or something.

God descended from on high to warn everyone to not do something and they proceeded to do it anyway. You can't get much dumber than that.

I also love that death is so utterly worthless by this point that the entire human race can be offered up as a sacrifice. All those deaths are on Goku's hands.

edited 30th Jun '14 1:01:08 PM by Nikkolas

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7100: Jun 30th 2014 at 1:13:35 PM

[up] Honestly, Goku didn't really have much of a choice. Vegeta had pulled a full blown Face–Heel Turn and had already killed over 200 people to just goad Goku into fighting him, and Vegeta was threatening to kill even more. It was a subtle but Sadistic Choice.

They had no excuse in the Cell Arc:

Bulma: Lets summon Sheron. Get him to tell us where Dr Gero's secret lab is, got to it and kill Dr Gero before he can activate the androids.

Z-Fighters: Fuck that. We wanna fight them!

But of course they would still have to deal with Magnificent Bastard Imperfect Cell. Who very well would have murdered them all regardless if the Androids were activated or not.

And if the story progresses the way it does, Vegeta was solely responsible for Perfect Cell even existing, by being the worst offender of carrying the Idiot Ball ever in Dragon Ball. Android 18 was also acting like a dumbass for not running away when everyone was screaming at her to do so.

edited 30th Jun '14 1:24:04 PM by FireShadow


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