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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#70801: Dec 5th 2017 at 7:14:32 PM

Super would probably be a very different beast if Goku & Vegeta stayed dead and Gohan persisted as the main character.

True, but imagine if Goku's involvement ended here. It's a perfect note to close his character on.

I was thinking about how Super might have turned out with Gohan taking Goku and Vegeta's roles:

    Battle of Gods 

  • So let's say Goku and Vegeta stayed in the Otherworld, with Vegeta being rewarded for his service in defeating Buu and allowed to keep his body. Vegeta opts to stay dead because "lol Dragonball" and because he knows he's no good on Earth with Bulma and Trunks, but really it's because he wants to punch Goku in the face and he doesn't want to wait the rest of his life to do it.
  • Gohan most likely goes back to studying like normal - his potential declines, but let's say for argument's sake it doesn't drop as much because beating Majin Buu and seeing what a threat he poses convinces Gohan to keep working out at least. well it doesn't really matter because he's still getting one-shotted by Beerus and boosted by SSG.
  • Beerus still learns of Super Saiyan God and goes to challenge Goku on King Kai's world. Then he goes to Earth, goes to Bulma's party, and causes a scene. Gohan tries to stop him but gets knocked out almost as fast as Goku did.
  • Alteration: Gohan stops Beerus in the nick of time, stating that they can find out who or what the Super Saiyan God is by summoning Shenron. Beerus agrees. The ritual is performed with Gohan - Goten - Trunks - Pan
    • and here we could either say that it requires four Saiyans instead of six
    • or we could have Goku and Vegeta warp in with Yemma's permission to help
    • or we could reintroduce Tarble and have him come to Earth for Bulma's party or some other excuse, and make the requirement be 5 living Saiyans, or maybe have Gure and Tarble have a half-Saiyan child to make for 6 living Saiyans
  • Gohan gets Super Saiyan God - which pretty much gives whatever boost is necessary to stand up to Beerus no matter what - and still loses like Goku did. Beerus doesn't destroy the Earth. Fin.

    Resurrection F 

  • Freeza gets wished back to Earth and everything pretty much happens like normal - instead of Goku and Vegeta training with Whis, we see Gohan participating in the battle more actively, rushing to different zones to help the other Earthlings until Freeza finally emerges.
  • Forget the one-punch scene entirely. This Gohan is tougher than that. He challenges Freeza to a fight and Freeza smartly decides to take his final form immediately.
  • Then they punch each other until the movie ends. Gohan still comes out stronger due to having Mystic Super Saiyan God mode, Freeza's Golden Freeza mode runs out of juice, and then he blows up the earth. Beerus and Whis survive, debate whether saving the earth is worth it before going ahead and warning Gohan minutes before Freeza does the deed.
  • Bam, movie done, nothing accomplished.

    Universe 6 

  • Beerus and Champa still come to blows and decide to settle their fight with a tournament. Gohan is the strongest person Beerus knows so he pulls him, Piccolo, Majin Buu, Goten, and Trunks into the tournament.
    • either keep Buu in or don't, he'll lose because Botamo's no-selling is better than his
  • Goten and Trunks are "okay" on their own, but they can't fuse into Gotenks here without it being called a foul
  • Gohan takes on Botamo and Frost like Goku did, but gets stuck with the needle the same way. Piccolo steps in, taking the loss a bit more personally since it's Gohan. He loses all the same, putting Goten or Trunks up to bat. Either one of them could beat Frost, hypothetically
  • Maybe use Trunks so we can have the Galick Gun hit Magetta
  • Cabba might see either Goten or Trunks as two of the most powerful fighters he's ever seen before, and be inspired to unlock Super Saiyan after seeing them do it
  • Then Hit shows up and wails on Goten and Trunks, but because Frost cheated Gohan gets another go. Then he fights Hit by being tactical and figuring out his moves like Goku did.
  • But here we run into a brick wall: does U6 or U7 win? If 6 wins then the story ends. So 7 has to win, but then how? Does Hit forfeit? Does Gohan actually beat him?
    • Gohan can't beat him without something like Kaioken Blue or a similar trump card... maybe he just fares better because of Mystic Super Saiyan God?
    • Hit wouldn't forfeit - not without seeing Goku/Gohan's potential and/or ability to overcome his Time Skip.
    • Gohan wouldn't forfeit - he takes things more seriously than Goku would. And with the stakes of the tournament being "our Earth gets moved to another universe not necessarily including the people on it," he's not going to give up just because he feels sorry for Hit.

So it ends there, but still, if we could go that far, the Goku Black arc might have more potency with Trunks being forced to face a corrupt version of Gohan, now the strongest fighter instead of Goku and the prime target for Zamasu's machinations. Fighting his former mentor versus fighting his mentor's father would create even greater tension.

edited 5th Dec '17 7:43:33 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70802: Dec 5th 2017 at 7:20:10 PM

[up] These seem like pretty good alterations (though I would take whatever option involves not mentioning Tarble ever again).

I think for Universe 6 I'd throw in Goten, Kid Trunks and possibly some of the Earthlings (likely Tien) to make up the numbers. The culling of Goku and Vegeta allows for some of the beefier supporting (and non- Saiyan) cast members to step up, like Piccolo who would likely be Gohan's Lancer throughout. Gohan and Future Trunks would likely have to combine in the Goku Black arc to win instead of Veggeto.

...crap, I like this version of Super more than what we have.

Also, the lack of Saiyans would mean you'd have to cut down on the power inflation.

edited 5th Dec '17 7:21:54 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70803: Dec 5th 2017 at 7:26:05 PM

Its not even Goku and Vegeta would have to be written out of the series given the afterlife in Dragon Ball may as well be a retirement home.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#70804: Dec 5th 2017 at 7:28:20 PM

The Universe Survival team would probably be identical.

This song needs more love.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70805: Dec 5th 2017 at 7:29:51 PM

Nah, if we're going this route I say that Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be in it because they're disqualified (on account of being dead). They'd crowd out everyone.

edited 5th Dec '17 7:30:42 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70806: Dec 5th 2017 at 7:30:30 PM

You do realize Freeza is dead right?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#70807: Dec 5th 2017 at 7:31:26 PM

[up][up] That was never a problem cause Frieza.

Besides other than it being sense to bring them back for a tournament requiring the universes strongest it be nice to just have them back for a while.

I'd like for Cell to return. Now having both Frieza & Cell together would be fucking awesome.

edited 5th Dec '17 7:31:59 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70808: Dec 5th 2017 at 7:31:27 PM

I mean more that being dead would be a good reason not to bring them back for the tournament. I didn't think Freeza should have been brought back for it either.

If they were gonna be brought back I think it should be one of those "there's a giant demon/alien thing attacking Earth" and they have a Big Damn Heroes (or Big Damn Saiyans?) moment. You would need to use them sparingly.

edited 5th Dec '17 7:32:49 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#70809: Dec 5th 2017 at 7:32:39 PM

The fact there incredibly strong is the reason they were brought back to life.

Besides why would Zeno give a fuck about that?

edited 5th Dec '17 7:33:01 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#70810: Dec 5th 2017 at 7:37:25 PM

Boo, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks and Gohan sounds like the perfect 5 man team for U 6. Goten and Trunks can really easily fit into the roles that non-God Goku and Vegeta had (like interacting with the U 6 Saiyans) without having the issues of sandbagging. Gohan doesn't fit in the place of a sandbagging Goku.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#70811: Dec 5th 2017 at 7:37:59 PM

17 and 18 could also come if they didn't want to involve the kids.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#70812: Dec 5th 2017 at 7:38:57 PM

Ya know watching the add for Toonami's next episode of Super I can't help but laugh at how Goku & Chi-Chi are nearing 50 yet Goten looks like he was born only a couple years ago.

Like solely looking at how young Goten looks by the time he'll be out of the house his parents will be in their late 60's to early 70's.

Hell, at this point Kid Trunks should be around the same age Trunks was in the History of Trunks OVA.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#70813: Dec 5th 2017 at 7:39:50 PM

Fuck not involving the kids, always involve the kids.

I'd have Vegeta earn the right to visit Earth for a day and use that to fill his BOG role.

I've thought about the structure of other arcs and will post when I get home

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#70814: Dec 5th 2017 at 7:41:31 PM

[up][up] The casting inertia is terrible.

Heh it really is easy ti improve to the U6 arc. Basically don't make it the Goku & Vegeta show. tongue

Piccolo should have had that rematch against Frost.

[up] I agree so as their potential isn't wasted. It would make all the hype they got in the Buu Saga not be a total waste.

edited 5th Dec '17 7:42:22 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70815: Dec 5th 2017 at 7:41:45 PM

I'll take that 5 man team, have Trunks and Goten be Gotenks during fights and bring in Krillin or Tien.

edited 5th Dec '17 7:41:58 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#70816: Dec 5th 2017 at 7:42:33 PM

I know one thing, in a Gohan-led Super, it'd be Platinum Cell instead of Golden Freeza. tongue

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70817: Dec 5th 2017 at 8:10:41 PM

Hue.

Even ROF can work a bit better with Gohan actually. Having him defeat his father's Arch-Enemy is symbolic in a way.

And yea, I agree. With Goku and Vegeta out of the way, Goten and Trunks have a lot more room for growth as proteges to Gohan. Hell, Goten can have some bit of a complex having to live up to the standards set by Goku and Gohan.

So much wasted potential...

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#70818: Dec 5th 2017 at 8:13:35 PM

Heh its amazing really.

Shit man if only we can get this stuff.

Fuck the only way I can think of is an AU manga spin-off.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70819: Dec 5th 2017 at 8:23:47 PM

Its funny because all post-Z material show exactly why Gohan getting shafted out of the protagonist spot has been detrimental to his character. Let's ignore my bias for a second here.

Gohan ended Z undisputed stronger than Goku (and Vegeta), but he was basically a non-factor in the epilogue. Which is fine since the series was over at that point. Then GT happened and he's basically ignored again, doesn't even go out to space for Dragon Ball hunting...even though he should still be stronger than Goku at that point.

Then Bo G happened, and they basically give Goku a new power up to put him above Gohan. Then Ro F had to explicitly nerf him to justify giving the spotlight to Goku and Vegeta. Toriyama has to basically keep finding excuses on why Gohan isn't as strong as he should be to keep things focused on Goku (and Vegeta), and Ro F was when it was most obvious.

It'd be less problematic had he just stuck to his original plan, because now he's just made more work for himself lol.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70820: Dec 5th 2017 at 8:30:08 PM

Well it's not like Gohan's own Mystic powerup was great either. It feels a little unearned, especially compared to SSJ 2, if you ask me.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70821: Dec 5th 2017 at 8:32:48 PM

Its no more "unearned" than almost every other power up in the series. This is a work of fiction, characters aren't "owed" anything.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#70822: Dec 5th 2017 at 8:36:14 PM

Yeah. Lets remember the Cho-sui water Goku drank in the Piccolo arc.

Or when Vegeta kept abusing zenkai.

Or when Piccolo fused with Nail.

Or when he fused with Kami.

Or the Androids, who were basically handed power greater than the most powerful mortal being by pure accident (Gero didn't even know about Frieza).

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#70823: Dec 5th 2017 at 8:37:53 PM

And for a recent example the U6 Saiyan girls transformations.

Nothing is earned here aside from Goku going ape-shit against Frieza.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70824: Dec 5th 2017 at 8:39:56 PM

There's what I think of as Narritively earned and in-universe earned, and Mystic was neither. The ultra-divine water I also dislike. The Zenkai boosts I'm sort of fine with since they require you to get brutally injured.

The Piccolo/Nail fusion doesn't really accomplish anything except for leading in to the far more Narriatively satisfying Piccolo/Kami fusion which *is* narritively earned since it represents Piccolo redeeming himself.

For villains I don't mind since they're evil, they're allowed to cheat.

edited 5th Dec '17 8:40:24 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#70825: Dec 5th 2017 at 8:41:43 PM

[up]x3 For real.

There's no merit to earning power ups in-universe or out.


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