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GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#70751: Dec 5th 2017 at 11:32:08 AM

I agree completely. Toriyama for some reason doesn't really want Gohan, Goten or Chibi Trunks to be heroes in the Buu saga but I heard it was that he didn't feel like they could be heroes and brought back Goku.

edited 5th Dec '17 11:46:21 AM by GAP

"Mai waifu."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#70752: Dec 5th 2017 at 11:32:35 AM

[up][up][up][up][up] Well they weren't actually hurt.

But the fact it left a scratch probably wounded their pride in a sense.

[up] Made a lot of things a waste of time in the end.

edited 5th Dec '17 11:33:04 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70753: Dec 5th 2017 at 11:39:28 AM

Vegeta's career definitely should have ended with his self sacrifice. Also, it should have actually mattered in some way, like leaving Buu with some sort of injury or vulnerability.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#70754: Dec 5th 2017 at 11:58:14 AM

I guess that shouldn't surprise me given that that stupid blaster actually crippled Goku.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was previously established that a fighter's durability is at least somewhat dependent on whether or not they're actively using their ki to shield themselves, or something like that. That's how Krillin was able to blast a hole through Vegeta after he deliberately let down his guard.

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#70755: Dec 5th 2017 at 12:00:17 PM

No...he made himself decidedly much weaker by lowering his PL in order for Kriller's strongest attack to almost kill him.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70756: Dec 5th 2017 at 12:04:58 PM

Basically Goku's introduced shrugging off a bullet in the first chapter.

If they don't outright come out and tell us about Ki fields we're not just gonna suddenly assume it.

They've never really bothered explaining how fights work at all.

edited 5th Dec '17 12:05:23 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#70757: Dec 5th 2017 at 12:14:44 PM

That was before Goku really learned to control his ki.

I assume that was just his natural saiyan durability at work.

Now, we do later see Roshi and Krillin withstand multiple bullets from launch (along with Goku) and this was back before Krillin was trained. That seemed to be played as joke. How durable non Z fighters are these days seems to just depend on whether it's a serious situation or not.

One Strip! One Strip!
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#70758: Dec 5th 2017 at 12:15:42 PM

I always thought that was a joke.

"Mai waifu."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#70759: Dec 5th 2017 at 12:16:45 PM

I think you disregard anything from early DB due to everything clearly being rule of funny at the time.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70760: Dec 5th 2017 at 12:19:23 PM

Goku got shot in the frikkin head and walked it off. That's not Rule of Funny, that's Establishing Character Moment.

Having Goku get blindsided by a mook with a gun is completely at odds with basically *everything* else that's ever happened in Dragonball.

edited 5th Dec '17 12:20:36 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#70761: Dec 5th 2017 at 12:23:03 PM

I think you disregard anything from early DB due to everything clearly being rule of funny at the time.

I will admit that was my failing but in my defense most of the early Dragon Ball was light hearted and silly until we get to the Red Ribbon Army arc.

"Mai waifu."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#70762: Dec 5th 2017 at 12:24:44 PM

Goku was always supposed to be different. Being an alien just explains things that had always been there with more of a reason besides "because main character".

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#70763: Dec 5th 2017 at 12:40:38 PM

I'm okay with everything up to right about here. I really wanted Gohan to be the main character at this point.

I agree with this. Yes, the Boo arc had a lot of hope spots that didn't work. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. Previous arcs had plenty of things just like it, and some of those were always going to fail because they were the kind of thing that would be a really bad idea to let succeed.

I do agree that Vegeta's career should have ended with his sacrifice though (and Goku should have stayed dead). Although you could still have the dead characters be brought in in non-major roles from time to time with how expansive the afterlife is.

I also like Super Saiyan 3 and think the Super Saiyan line vecomes less interesting without it. It's good that the capstone form is so inefficient, because it answers the question of "how far can the transformations go?" by showing the characters go too far. And it also helps support Old Kaioshin's assertation that Super Saiyan forms aren't the way to go later in the arc.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70764: Dec 5th 2017 at 12:55:58 PM

Goku was always different because he had a tail and turned into a wereape. Dragonball started off as very magic based, that sort of thing alongside shapeshifting cats and pigs and tiny little blue demons and talking dogs was *normal*.

Considering Goku starts off the series with the Janken attack, he almost certainly didn't start with zero martial arts training.

Goku being an alien was a retcon. I mean, it makes sense, and it doesn't jar with the rest of the series before it. But it wasn't meant from the beginning nor would Goku be seen as hugely weird if it was never revealed.

edited 5th Dec '17 12:57:00 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#70765: Dec 5th 2017 at 1:12:16 PM

He tells of his training to Turtle Hermit...of course the audience already knew that.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#70766: Dec 5th 2017 at 1:23:48 PM

Personally, I'd just write out Gotenks and the Metamoran fusion entirely. Remove one of those steps that makes the Buu Saga so cluttered while also justifying Goten and Trunks' complete lack of importance as fighters in Super. It's not like Metamoran fusion has ever been plot-important or even used aside from Gotenks. Make the Buu Saga more focused on Goku and Gohan's relationship.

While Super did drag its feet on it, I do like Gohan re-awakening his warrior spirit and getting back the power that he used to have. Gohan going through a phase of "father in college with no time for martial arts" was a good place to take the character, and it made his comeback so much more satisfying. It feels less like Gohan's being groomed to be the protagonist, like so many thought Z was about, and more like a natural evolution of his character; constantly trying to balance his academic and warrior lives and going through phases of favoring one over the other. I'm much more interested in Gohan now than when he was the main character for the short stint at the beginning of the Buu Saga.

Another small thing that I'd change: establish that Gohan getting so much weaker in Resurrection 'F' is because he's been overwhelmed with college and being a first-time parent, not because he's just forgotten to train.

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#70767: Dec 5th 2017 at 1:29:20 PM

That would be a good reason as to why Gohan would be weaker than he was before but Dragon Ball is a fighting series so the part is not gonna happen outside of filler.

"Mai waifu."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#70768: Dec 5th 2017 at 1:38:19 PM

I mean, it's as simple as him just saying as much.

Gohan: "Sorry guys, but with Videl's pregnancy, Pan's birth and raising her, as well as keeping up with my classes, I haven't really been able to find time to keep up on my training."

Krillin: "It's okay, I know how you feel. I had barely any free time after Marron's birth, too, and I can't imagine having school on top of that!"

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#70769: Dec 5th 2017 at 1:52:05 PM

I can see your point about Super Saiyan 3 being a capstone, but I still dislike Super Saiyan 3 aesthetically and functionally. I say they could have pronounced the fleeting usefulness of Super Saiyan just as easily without it, just by having Super Saiyan 2 worfed. That said, maybe I'm letting my distaste for how it looks get the better of me.

random question non-sequiter

What would any of you consider to be the worst beating dished out in this series?

[down] (2) Just any old beating. Like Zarbon headbutting Vegeta again and again.

edited 5th Dec '17 2:38:45 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#70770: Dec 5th 2017 at 1:55:38 PM

Recoome against Gohan.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70771: Dec 5th 2017 at 1:56:19 PM

With or without it ending in a death?

Without, possibly Vegeta V Goku in the Saiyan Saga.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#70772: Dec 5th 2017 at 1:56:27 PM

When Frieza made Vegeta cry like a bitch.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#70773: Dec 5th 2017 at 2:01:04 PM

Piccolo Jr turning Goku into a quadriplegic with a hole through his shoulder (though not hitting any vital organs) was pretty gnarly.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#70774: Dec 5th 2017 at 2:01:48 PM

Gohand vs. Kakarrot...

That's just unnecessarily brutal.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#70775: Dec 5th 2017 at 2:09:03 PM

Seconding Piccolo Jr. tormenting Goku. That was pretty brutal.


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