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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70726: Dec 5th 2017 at 9:10:04 AM

Buu's the exact example of How Much More Can He Take? I dislike. Unlike with Vegeta he isn't ground down, he's more or less as powerful as he was when they started fighting him.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#70727: Dec 5th 2017 at 9:17:29 AM

There were definitely way too many steps and fake-outs in beating Buu.

First, there was Vegeta, who talked like Buu wouldn't be a threat and sacrificed his life trying to take him out. Then, we have the fusion of Goten and Trunks and Gohan with the Z Sword both being hyped to defeat Buu. Goku then reveals a whole new form of Super Saiyan just to stall for time, setting that up as a potential Chekhov's Gun, unfortunately he runs out of time because of a never-before-mentioned energy drain on time spent in the living world. Gotenks appears and promptly loses horribly to Buu. Satan makes friends with Buu, maybe ending the arc right there with Buu's redemption until Satan is shot and Buu loses his shit and splits into a a good and evil half, which combine into a different Buu, more powerful than ever.

Gohan breaks the Z Sword and meets the Kaioshin inside, who says that he can release his hidden potential. Gotenks trains in the HTC and learns Super Saiyan 3, beating Buu until he abruptly fails because of a never-before-mentioned energy drain on fusion's time limit. Gohan shows up with his new unlocked potential, but Buu outsmarts him and then overpowers him by absorbing Gotenks. A never-before-mentioned new type of fusion is introduced for no reason, just in time for Gohan to be absorbed. Goku and Vegeta fuse into Vegetto who fights Buu, only to let himself get absorbed to revert Buu to a weaker state despite it not being necessary to win.

Goku fights this new weak Buu using Super Saiyan 3, only to run out of energy because of a never-before-mentioned difference between a living body and a dead body in terms of stamina. Vegeta then suggests the Spirit Bomb, which hasn't been used since Freeza, 11 years ago. Buu then expels a whole new good Buu, who's only purpose for existing is to give Satan's aforementioned relationship some kind of pay-off and to stall for time for the Spirit Bomb, which Vegeta was already doing okay at.

edited 5th Dec '17 9:23:31 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#70728: Dec 5th 2017 at 9:22:15 AM

edited 5th Dec '17 9:39:51 AM by Fedetropes

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#70729: Dec 5th 2017 at 9:29:47 AM

Link didn't work.

Might have too many spaces or didn't remove the right part.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#70730: Dec 5th 2017 at 9:32:14 AM

Damm Adult Gohan truly looks like the embodiment of pure unrelenting power in his new trailer.

I always did thought he had a more menacing death glare than his father.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#70731: Dec 5th 2017 at 9:34:29 AM

But really, is it any more bullshit than Cell coming back from his suicide bombing because a specific part of his brain somehow survived, and then he got the saiyan power boost that the series seemingly forgot about, even though that didn't happen when Vegeta destroyed half of his body?

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#70732: Dec 5th 2017 at 9:36:37 AM

Him coming back is kinda bullshit (since Goku blew his entire upper torso back and there was no reference to that nucleus), but him not getting the Zenkai from what Vegeta did might not be.

He wasn't closer to death with what Vegeta did. With the suicide attack, he was in chunks, which is Cell's near death.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70733: Dec 5th 2017 at 9:41:18 AM

More to the point, that only happened *once*.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
RedM Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
#70734: Dec 5th 2017 at 10:24:38 AM

Honestly, coming back from a nucleus hidden in his brain after Goku vaporized the top half of his body was pretty stupid. Which is why the dub's explanation that he could come back from a single cell (because that's his name, you guys!) was better.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#70735: Dec 5th 2017 at 10:28:34 AM

People talk about the Grand Priest enabling Zeno as if the Grand Priest has any actual power over him. The phrasing was that the angels will be spared, not that he can't erase them if he wants.

And, presumably, there's some (fucked up) reasoning for things to be like this. Now as for if they end up coming up with a better hierarchy or something, only time will tell.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#70736: Dec 5th 2017 at 10:32:16 AM

I mean, the nucleus wasn't even necessary.

Cell has Frieza's ability to survive anything (the latter was still alive even after being cut to pieces, and only died when Trunks flat out incinerated those pieces), so they should have just said as long as there is a piece of me left, I can regenerate.

Also, after this arc of Super is done, what would you guys think of an old school dragon ball hunt against another group also seeking them...with the twist that these guys are also good guys (or as good as you can be in DB).

In the original series, anytime someone else was searching for the balls at the same time as the gang, they were always straight up villains (Pilaf, who damn near won anyway, and the Red Ribbon), so there was little in the way of a moral quandary. But it would be interesting to see someone else who needed the balls as much as, or even more so than the gang.

Of course, this probably won't work since there are three wishes now...and there's not really anyone left who could pose a challenge to the gang either.

...fuck. So much for that idea. You'd have to jump through a lot of hoops to make it work.

One Strip! One Strip!
Kosjurake The Wildest of Ronins from Tokyo LOCCENT Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
The Wildest of Ronins
#70737: Dec 5th 2017 at 10:41:13 AM

I dunno. I think you could make it work if the person searching for the dragonballs was Hercule or Videl, or maybe both as like a father daughter bonding vacation thing. As far as I'm aware Videl hasn't been subject to the ridiculous power inflation every other ki user has been.

Why they're going for the dragonballs I dunno. Secret gift for someone else? Just for the sake of adventure? Not exactly the best grounds for a conflict admittedly, but oh well.

Click Click Boom Boom
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#70738: Dec 5th 2017 at 10:44:48 AM

BOG already forgot that Videl is superhuman when it had her get seriously injured by a ricochet, so you're right about that. Does she even fly anymore?

Kosjurake The Wildest of Ronins from Tokyo LOCCENT Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
The Wildest of Ronins
#70739: Dec 5th 2017 at 10:46:04 AM

She flies onto the roof of a building during the great saiyaman two parter in Super.

Click Click Boom Boom
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70740: Dec 5th 2017 at 10:52:08 AM

It's quite unfortunate that the two weakest regular fighting characters in DB (not counting Mr. Satan) are Videl and Pan (in GT).

Videl's greatest feat was somehow not getting killed when she ran into Broly in Second Coming.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#70741: Dec 5th 2017 at 10:55:48 AM

Was that ricochet from Beerus?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#70742: Dec 5th 2017 at 10:58:01 AM

After this is also said and done it'll be interesting to discuss which was the "best" erasure.

If we're dealing with the invisobugs next then I suppose 4 is the next one out. It's amazing how 3 managed to stick around this long on sheer irrelevance.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#70743: Dec 5th 2017 at 11:00:45 AM

Since when was Videl a regular fighting character? You might as well complain about Bulma or Chichi being weak.

And no, it was a ricocheted bullet fired by Mai. Or maybe it was Pilaf, don't remember. It hardly matters. Bullets didn't even pierce Goku or Krillin's skin when they were a fraction her strength.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#70744: Dec 5th 2017 at 11:02:06 AM

[up][up][up]Wasn't that before Bills showed up?

(yes it was, apparently)

edited 5th Dec '17 11:02:57 AM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70745: Dec 5th 2017 at 11:02:36 AM

Bulma isn't a fighter at all and Chi-Chi was a bit character then a single time opponent in a tournament; when Chi-Chi became a regular character she immediately ceased to be a fighter.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#70746: Dec 5th 2017 at 11:06:43 AM

[up][up][up] Ah.

Well actually & slight spoilers here from where your at but Krillen get his own arc where he deals with his ending his status as a martial artist & the catalyst of that change was well you guessed it being damaged by a regular bullet like Videl.

Same with Goku too. Turns out you can get weak with time as Gohan shows.

edited 5th Dec '17 11:07:37 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#70747: Dec 5th 2017 at 11:20:05 AM

^^ By regular to do you mean normal or do you mean as in regularly appears? I mean, I guess Videl had more interest in martial arts than Chichi did but she only ever had a single fight that I can think of and was beaten down into the pavement. After that she stopped fighting just like Chichi before her.

^ That's ridiculous. Krillin's reaction to being shot as a child was 'ow.' He wasn't seriously hurt.

So not only is the power scale way lower than the planet busting would indicate, but Toriyama has retconned his characters' durability. I guess that shouldn't surprise me given that that stupid blaster actually crippled Goku.

edited 5th Dec '17 11:21:37 AM by Arha

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#70748: Dec 5th 2017 at 11:22:18 AM

They still had her fighting in filler and movies.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#70749: Dec 5th 2017 at 11:23:44 AM

Well...it went through his heart. If it hit anywhere else, it probsly wouldn't have done anything.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#70750: Dec 5th 2017 at 11:25:31 AM

irst, there was Vegeta, who talked like Buu wouldn't be a threat and sacrificed his life trying to take him out. Then, we have the fusion of Goten and Trunks and Gohan with the Z Sword both being hyped to defeat Buu. Goku then reveals a whole new form of Super Saiyan just to stall for time, setting that up as a potential Chekhov's Gun, unfortunately he runs out of time because of a never-before-mentioned energy drain on time spent in the living world. Gotenks appears and promptly loses horribly to Buu. Satan makes friends with Buu, maybe ending the arc right there with Buu's redemption until Satan is shot and Buu loses his shit and splits into a a good and evil half, which combine into a different Buu, more powerful than ever.

Gohan breaks the Z Sword and meets the Kaioshin inside, who says that he can release his hidden potential. Gotenks trains in the HTC and learns Super Saiyan 3, beating Buu until he abruptly fails because of a never-before-mentioned energy drain on fusion's time limit. Gohan shows up with his new unlocked potential, but Buu outsmarts him and then overpowers him by absorbing Gotenks. A never-before-mentioned new type of fusion is introduced for no reason, just in time for Gohan to be absorbed

I'm okay with everything up to right about here. I really wanted Gohan to be the main character at this point.

If I could rewrite Dragonball though:

    massive headcanon rant 

  • Super Saiyan 3 isn't even a thing. It stops with Gohan "ascending" and we just have "Super Saiyan" and "Ascended (Electrical Discharge) Super Saiyan."
  • So that when Vegeta gains the electrical discharge, we're absolutely freaking the f'ck out because, "wait, Vegeta's as strong as Gohan was!" and it doesn't immediately become invalidated by "but Goku's hair is longer and spikier!" Super Saiyan 2 still means something.
  • Thus, when Goku is worried about fighting Buu, he's actually concerned because he hasn't discovered 3/a new level of power and he's still the same old Super Saiyan. Thus, his fight with Buu becomes a battle of attrition- relying more on Goku talking his way through the fight, and using distractions to keep Buu entertained, but also on Goku just being a more tactical fighter and not so much having this new awesome form that "maybe could have beaten Fat Buu if he'd tried."
  • Then, we know the torch is passed, because Goku doesn't have 3 or the power to stop Buu, the boys are learning fusion, and Gohan is training with the Z-Sword. So when Goku tells Gohan to "go be a hero" in the Supreme Kai world, the message isn't for naught. Gohan actually is the most capable, by far.
  • Goku just stays in Other World, forget Battle of Gods and Super.
  • Vegeta comes back from the dead to help Gohan (who still f'cks up), but they manage to fuse with the Potara or something, fighting against Gotenks Buu.
    • Then the fusion runs out and Buu resorts to absorbing them.
    • But they power up and resist the absorption.
      • No no, Gohan and Vegeta fight Buu from outside, Gohan gets eaten but resists because MYSTIC MAGIC, and Vegeta holds Buu off while Gohan goes to rescue the boys, and they fight Buu from inside.
      • Pure Buu emerges, blows up the earth, but Kibito Kai shows up and saves Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Vegeta - who are actually screwed this time because they have no way to stop the blast, or escape the explosion, and the tension doesn't rely on Goku forgetting that he has loved ones nearby or being unable to focus.

Anyway, that's how I would have gone about it. Just to make Gohan center-stage. Not that I hate Goku, but the build-up is wasted when Goku comes back and fuses with Vegeta.

And then maybe:

  • Gohan, Goku, Vegeta, Goten, and Trunks are the last line of defense against Buu.
  • Goku and Vegeta still end up respecting each other while Gohan and Gotenks fend off Buu. They fight together for the sake of their sons and come to respect one another in their afterlives.
  • Everyone gets beaten down because Buu just won't stop, Goku charges the spirit bomb, Fat Buu fights Pure Buu, and the victory is achieved through team effort, but Gohan is picking up the bulk of the bill.
    • Ah but wasn't Gohan astronomically more powerful than Buu? If he fought Kid Buu he'd win instantly. Well sure he would, normally. But after fighting Gotenks Buu and inside of Buu, he's tired, hasn't had Dende or senzu beans around, and Kid Buu is a far more relentless opponent. And even if that doesn't add up and Dende should still be available to heal Gohan in this scenario, just artificially increase Pure Buu's strength - this is my rewrite after all, and Kid Buu is meant to be the greatest terror in the known universe. He shouldn't be weaker than Gohan who just so happened to be magically enhanced by Old Kai. Maybe even in his Super form, he was still mentally holding himself back.
  • Wham, bam, done, same events as the show. Except this time, Gohan and Gotenks didn't just nod off and power up Buu.

tl;dr - I'd rewrite things so Goku is less powerful, and Gohan and Goten actually receive the torch from Goku. Their roles in the Buu Saga were fine until Goku and Vegeta were sledgehammered back into the plot.

edited 5th Dec '17 1:32:42 PM by Soble

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