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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#70251: Dec 1st 2017 at 4:25:38 PM

I'd also noticed that. It's guilty of pretty much all of the "flaws" that people take issue with other shonen for.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70252: Dec 1st 2017 at 4:29:29 PM

Oh yea, I agree. Jojo isn't perfect by any means, it's just so over the top and irreverent in what it does that people enjoy it more than they criticize it.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#70253: Dec 1st 2017 at 4:35:40 PM

Why can't fights just be fights...?

Is it just not so simple?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70254: Dec 1st 2017 at 4:36:59 PM

There's a fair amount of what I call diagetic exposition which I'm usually fine with and that's when characters are trying to work out what their enemy's power is based on because the audience is doing that at the same time. We know, on first watching, as much as the characters know.* Jo Jo tends to use this when doing exposition.

Sometimes there is a bit of Explaining Your Powers to the Enemy in Jojo but not as much as you'd think. Most of the time the explainer is explicitly an arrogant tool who's just screwed themselves over; the really dangerous opponents don't explain anything.

There are definitely some slipshod fights in Jo Jo occasionally, but 9 times out of ten they hit it out of the park. Bad Jo Jo fights are the exception rather than the rule.

Also, for all the jokes about it Hamon, after the two moments Zeppelli and then Jonathon use it to split a stone and vibrate through a stone, respectively it was pretty consistent - it just did a lot of things. You need to breathe and have blood flow to produce it. It was conducted by organic matter, metal, and liquids and it could manipulate these things by sticking them together, shaping liquids and healing people. It also killed vampires. Most of the time it was all about finding a way to conduct it to your opponent. Like, that's a lot of things, but look at everything Ki can do in Dragonball:

-use it to attack -use it to improve strength -you can pass it into someone -use it to improve defence -you can split it to create extra bodies -you can use it to produce lightning from your hands -you can use it to heal? sort of? -telepathy -telekenisis

and this barely scratches the surface of ki. So I don't think we can throw stones at Hamon for having two dodgy moments when it was first introduced.

  • until the end of the fight where the hero's grand strategy is revealed, generally only after they've enacted it

edited 1st Dec '17 4:40:43 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#70255: Dec 1st 2017 at 4:44:20 PM

Jojo is also really old, so there might be a bit of Grandfather Clause.

I still love Jojo cause it's balls to the walls nutty, though yeah, Hamon did have a lot of New Powers as the Plot Demands to it. With Stands, I'd say Araki got a lot better, and a lot more creative in how crazy fights could get with the many abilities.

As for Dragonball...it's got it's own style, and while I still think it'd be interesting to see Goku beat a stronger opponent, not through being stronger, but through finding a flaw in the way they fight and using it against them, I'd be lying if I didn't say the way they did things worked, or a I wouldn't even be here.

edited 1st Dec '17 4:44:34 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#70256: Dec 1st 2017 at 4:48:29 PM

So Jojo fights aren't as intelligent as I thought?

"Mai waifu."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#70257: Dec 1st 2017 at 4:50:30 PM

It has had way more than two dodgy moments.[lol] You've got shit like using Hamon to somehow put a pidgeon in someone else's mouth that will only reveal itself when that person is kissed, the fact that it continuously gains new applications without much definition. So we don't know what the characters know, because they know all these strategies and abilities they could be using before they reveal them.

You're also conflating intelligent with good, and dumb with bad. I wasn't talking about whether the fights are good or not, and I think it's a really bad idea to conflate the two like that. That said, Jojo DOES have plenty of bad or mediocre fights, but that's not the same as its fights not being very intelligent.

Also I never said Hamon was worse than Ki. I think Ki is pretty vaguely defined as well, which does Hamon no favours. Most of what you listed can also be done by Hamon (and more) and some of that isn't even ki-based alone but related to other special powers - psychic powers are specifically singled out as a separate ability and splitting bodies is an alien trait. Healing is most commonly possessed by magic-users.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70258: Dec 1st 2017 at 4:51:52 PM

Splitting bodies isn't an alien trait, Tien does it, and he's human. The idea that he's part alien is from a non-canon source.

Goku heals Freeza with a ki blast at the end of the Namek saga to save him before Freeza decides to be a FOOOOOOOOOOOL!

Pidgeons are organic objects, he filled it with hamon and stuffed it in her mouth so when it was opened by a kiss it would fly out. But you are sort of right, Part 2 is very whacky.

edited 1st Dec '17 4:54:17 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#70259: Dec 1st 2017 at 4:53:44 PM

Who are you to say it's non-canon? Canon hasn't been defined in Dragon Ball. His alien heritage is a consistent part of the supplemental knowledge, and the only thing attributed to his splitting.

Goku doesn't heal Freeza. He transfers his energy to him, and Freeza is able to survive off that.

With Stands, I'd say Araki got a lot better, and a lot more creative in how crazy fights could get with the many abilities.

It's a lot less about being creative and more about creating Stands with really really broken Required Secondary Powers. Like, the one that gets the most praise/hype is Bruno's ability to "create zippers" except his ability is absolutely not just creating zippers but manipulating space with said zippers. It's really fucking obvious that spacial manipulation is a really good power but fans exaggerate or outright lie and say his only power is to create zippers and he is able to use it effectively because Araki is creative.

He also has a habit of giving people vague/inconsistent powers to achieve this 'creative' style. That's where the memes come from about stuff fans still don't understand like how King Crimson works, exactly.

edited 1st Dec '17 4:57:55 PM by Saiga

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#70260: Dec 1st 2017 at 4:57:13 PM

I'm aware of Tien apparently having alien heritage but what does that have to do with splitting bodies?

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70261: Dec 1st 2017 at 4:57:54 PM

I think Mistare Fusion has a video on it somewhere, but I'll say it because I pretty much agree 1 for 1 with him on this subject:

We see a lot of whacky stuff from Earth like shapeshifting pigs, talking turtles, floating cats and so on. Making Tien an alien serves no purpose but to make Dragonball's Earth less interesting. Yes, he has three eyes and can do crazy stuff. Krillin has no nose and can do crazy stuff.

We have just as much supplemental stuff saying Tien got his third eye from mystic training. The only difference is fans latched on to the sci-fi explanation over the mystic one.

Bruno can create doors in stuff with his zippers, yes? That's what a zipper does. It is still a fairly limited power and he is insanely dangerous and creative with it - look no further than the Pesci Prosecuttio fight.

edited 1st Dec '17 5:00:24 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#70262: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:00:02 PM

[up][up] It's an ability inherited from the three eye clan.

[up] Aliens are a part of the setting, I see no issue with Ten being one. Earth is still just as interesting without naturally producing people with a third eye. The mystic training was never mentioned as consistently as the alien heritage and was phased out. It's not because fans latched onto it but because more recent official materials went with the alien heritage after the eye was dropped. You're starting to make things up at this point.

Also, not liking it doesn't make it less trustworthy as a source.

Uhhh no. Zippers don't create doors. Zippers can be attached to openings to close them up, that's the most extra power you could give "create zippers" without being a stretch.

edited 1st Dec '17 5:01:31 PM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70263: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:01:05 PM

Piccolo does it as well, and Krillin too, I'm pretty sure. Does Krillin come from the noseless clan? I know Piccolo has done it, and he would have a totally different biology from this "three eyed clan"

However much energy Goku gave Freeza he's still CUT IN HALF. Energy is not the problem here it's that his glubark is falling out of his body.

edited 1st Dec '17 5:02:59 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#70264: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:02:16 PM

So first you dismiss the Daizenshuu as non-canon, but then you use anime filler in your argument?

Bruno can use his power to dismantle things, cut them up, create extra-dimensional spaces to hide objects or himself (at no harm to the object), heal people, harmlessly sever things, harmfully sever things, and travel like a zip line. His powers are pure bullshit.

edited 1st Dec '17 5:04:46 PM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70265: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:03:12 PM

Was that scene filler? Didn't know. Either way, that just means they both lack legitimacy.

edited 1st Dec '17 5:04:06 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#70266: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:03:59 PM

[up]X5

Sounds like Old Tori just changed his mind after introducing Aliens for so long.

Also I never said Hamon was worse than Ki. I think Ki is pretty vaguely defined as well, which does Hamon no favours. Most of what you listed can also be done by Hamon (and more)

Hamon can do most of the things that Ki does, except you can just protect it as a beam (otherwise, a lot of fights in Part 1 and 2 would have been much easier). You absolutely have to have a conductor for it. Beyond that, and the catch that it's super effective against Vampires and Pillar men, it's admittedly very similar.

edited 1st Dec '17 5:04:34 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70267: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:05:14 PM

You can't fly with Hamon, you can't protect your body with it - those are two pretty important differences.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#70268: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:15:09 PM

However much energy Goku gave Freeza he's still CUT IN HALF. Energy is not the problem here it's that his glubark is falling out of his body.

And we see that stuff is still hanging out after Goku gives him his energy. He didn't heal him or closure up the wound. Freeza just survived that with his biology.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#70269: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:24:08 PM

Super Says that if somebody stops your heart, a spare ki blast can act as a jump start for it.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#70270: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:24:51 PM

According to Resurrection 'F', Freeza has the ability to survive for a short while in the form of meat chunks. Getting cut in half is nothing. Freeza's problem was that he was out of energy and couldn't escape the exploding planet and underestimated his own durability thinking that he would die from it.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#70271: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:27:20 PM

[up][up] Given what we know of ki, that's not too much of a stretch. Defibrillation doesn't involve healing or anything like that.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#70272: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:29:49 PM

[up][up]

To be fair, he'd never been caught in an Earth-Shattering Kaboom before.

Caused one yes, but never been caught in one, so I'm not surprised he got spooked about actually dying. Namek wasn't one of Frieza's better days.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#70273: Dec 1st 2017 at 6:03:55 PM

Okay I got something. So we all know that Goku finds Chi-Chi being an abusive shrew a turn on cause of his Saiyan biology even if he doesn't know it?

Is a Goku a sub and/or masochist? Cause he just sits back & takes it compared to Vegeta in contrast who will challenge Bulma.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70274: Dec 1st 2017 at 6:08:03 PM

Saiyans like "strong willed" women, not abusive ones. Goku's just too laidback to really care about Chi-Chi's bitch fits, so he just goes along with the program.

edited 1st Dec '17 6:08:15 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70275: Dec 1st 2017 at 6:14:51 PM

Chi-Chi is significantly more bitchy in the anime than the manga. Either way, considering how cavalier Goku is about his family life combined with an endless barrage of stress (her son is kidnapped by the king of demons and her husband is killed on the same day; they both fight unimaginable monstrousities day in day out) it's understandable why she turns out kinda stern.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"

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