citing a trading card game as a source for a powerlevel of a non-manga character, and treating that as the same level of dubious as a power level printed alongside the manga for a manga character that matches the dialogue of the manga? That's a riot.
Raditz' at 1,500 was printed in jump and matches several statements in the manga:
He calls Gohan's 1,307 'stronger than Goku' - not himself.
Nappa says the Saibaimen 'in power alone, rival Raditz' the wording says they're inferior in all other aspects, and the Japanese wording for rival also implies inferiority.
There is absolutely no argument to be had that the Saibaimen have power equal, or superior, to Raditz.
In addition, Gohan and Kuririn had battle powers of around 1,500 when they killed two of Freeza's grunts in a single blow each. Raditz is strong by Freeza soldier standards, there is just a huge gap between them and the mutants from Dodoria and up.
edited 30th Nov '17 3:22:25 PM by Saiga
Something I just realized-since Cell spoke about his backstory and the underground basement, it allowed Trunks and Krillin to go in there and got them to destroy the embryonic Present Cell. Meaning he unknowingly prevented another android problem.
On another note, is it established that Cell can't develop without human bio-extract, or can he target bio-extract of, say, cows and Dr Gero made him go after humans because he's a misanthrope
Power is the *only* string to Raditz' bow. He's a terrible technical fighter. I suppose that's the reason I consider him weak, aside from being only 1500 while having the tremendous natural leg up that is being a Saiyan.
People like Taopaipai are far weaker than Raditz but because he was a superb technical fighter I consider him more dangerous - of course he would lose to Raditz with a flick of a finger, but Taopaipai basically makes the power he has work for him.
Same with say, Vegeta when he's introduced, but less because of technical skills and more sheer tenacity. He's mastered the Oozaru transformation, copies the Desctructo Disk having only seen it twice and *uses it better than the guy who invented it*. He outlasts being hit with a hugely powerful ball of energy that targets evil, and so on. Raditz gets his tail grabbed by Goku and has to use an I Surrender, Suckers! to get away.
So while he might represent a large jump in power, in terms of how he used that power he fails to impress me.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"That's pure fan interpretation and not backed up by the series at all.
Tao doesn't really appear that techinical at all. Can't even use the crane school's flight.
Edit: Tao ALSO resorts to "I surrender, suckers" and is only a threat when he has a massive power advantage. Once Goku levels up he folds like a paper tiger. That's a horrible example.
Furthermore, there are several comments that imply Rafitz is more than just raw power. Nappa's descriptor of the Saibaimen states that there is an even bigger gap between Raditz and a Saibaiman in non-strength related areas.
Raditz also mentions it's not just power Goku is lacking but proper training, suggesting Saiyan culture is not what people sterotype it as. Yeah, he couldn't sense ki or manipulate his power level, but he could fly better than anyone else in his introduction. And it later turns out that sensing is super easy if you're aware of it.
Skill isn't focused much on DB. Making such definitive statements is reaching, and filling in gaps. The fanon that Earth is particularly skilled is just that, fanon.
edited 30th Nov '17 4:26:22 PM by Saiga
I imagine if it was, we'd get less claims that certain powerful characters are Unskilled, but Strong. But that's not really Toriyama's style. While characters occasionally use strategy and clever tactics (hell, the aforementioned Raditz fight initially hinged on getting a hold of his tail to get around his superior power), it often does come down to just be stronger than the other dude.
One Strip! One Strip!Just saying, Earth has a lot more techniques introduced. Heck, in his first fight with Goku, Roshi must bust out about what, three or four? Kamehameha, Drunken Boxing, Goodchildren Lullaby, Welcome to the Shocking Show, and he also uses the Janken Fist and the Afterimage technique.
Tien in his first fight? Four Arms transformation, Dodonpa, Solar Flare, Volleyball Technique, and the Kikoho.
Yeah, I think Earth actually relies on skills and techniques a lot more than later characters in the show.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Oh, I love the variety of techniques we get from the Earth fighters.
I mean, they're all rendered functionally useless one after the other for one reason or another, or Goku steals them and uses them even better than their originators, but they were still fun.
One Strip! One Strip!Relying on techniques isn't the same thing as being skilled. Goku is one of the most skilled fighters in the setting, and a combat genius, and he doesn't bother with the large majority those moves.
Furthermore, a lot of those creative moves outright suck, which he points out. They may be creative but a skilled fighters uses what is effective.
edited 30th Nov '17 5:18:05 PM by Saiga
Skill means your good.
A technique or trick really is the Kamehameha or the Death Ball. Meaning having a lot of techniques can simply be shooting ki blasts from hands, feet, or fingers & naming each separately.
Having a lot of tricks does not mean you are skilled.
edited 30th Nov '17 5:21:45 PM by slimcoder
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."Fair enough. The Kamehameha is a very simple but straight forward and effective technique.
I mean, the Spirit Bomb is technically stronger, but is rather situational, and takes a long time to get going. the Kaioken is incredibly risky, and even after it's mastered, rendered useless because it's higher level is woefully below the biggest heavy hitters of the galaxy.
I like the aesthetics of them however, though I feel like, similar to many things in this series, they were introduced entirely to fail and demonstrate again why Goku is so great, something that I'd argue we didn't really need after a while.
...Also, there's no excuse for only ever seeing the Special Beam Cannon all of once.
One Strip! One Strip!He used it twice against Raditz
And he appeared to use it the way it was intended against Nappa.
I think the good thing about techniques being one-offs is that they'd eventually suffer the Worf Barrage or just become repetitive. Most are variations of 'kill them dead' so you can just stick to basic stuff.
Having lots of tricks is the best way to illustrate how skilled someone is visually, either that or cool close combat tricks - which have fallen pretty much out of favour. When was the last time someone did stuff in DB that was inspired by actual martial arts?
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"No, actually showing the character make effective decisions to their advantage is how you show they're skilled.
The techniques fell out of favour as the series continued, you can't use them alone to measure skill.
Even when they were used, they weren't terribly efficient, and again, genius Goku mostly countered them without getting fancy.
A good example of a skilled warrior with a cool technique is once again Hit.
Man can time-skip which is awesome & despite it lasting for less than a second his skill allows him to use the technique to its maximum potential.
He can even evolve it into different variations.
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Well theres still some creativity at least. Sliding Kamehameha anyone?
edited 30th Nov '17 5:40:41 PM by slimcoder
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."![]()
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Could not agree more. Look no further than Xenoverse 2's description for the Dodonpa. "Weaker Ki blast than normal that comes out quickly". The Dodonpa is equal to the Kamehameha, except specialised for killing. It's not Tien's fodder ki blast, it's his main ki blast. The Kikoho is his "I can't kill them" ki blast, it's just that he has to use it a ton because he usually isn't strong enough to hurt people without it, heck, he usually isn't strong enough to hurt people *with* it.
Ki blasts used to really tucker you out, now they spam them like it's a video game.
Also agreed. Hit was great. I wish Goku had figured out a way to beat the time skip that wasn't "give it moah powah"
edited 30th Nov '17 5:44:17 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Having a bunch of situational techniques that only work with the element if surprise isn't the same as being skilled in a craft.
Most techniques in Dragon Ball are gimmicks that fall apart once they're figured out. Or rather, if you have to rely on a gimmick to overcome an opponent, it usually means you're covering up your actual lack of skill.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Well, you can see them like that. I see having a bunch of techniques as implying lots of age and experience.
But more importantly, either have more techniques or have them do actual martial arts. Dragonball has just devolved into firing ki blasts and punching and there's not really any skill anymore.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Skill is in tactics used, not techniques known.
The number of techniques represents the options. Skill is about effectively exercising options, not having more of them.
I also agree with LSBK's point but I'm sure everyone is aware I share that sentiment as I dislike Super/the anime spamming such techniques.
There is no real difference in the level of tactics used. DB's martial arts was never a match for real world martial arts, nor was it inherently tactical.
edited 30th Nov '17 5:49:16 PM by Saiga

Its very funny to look back and think about how strong some characters were lol.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.