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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#70126: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:52:18 AM

The terminology is "upper level" and all it means is that the Saiyan is strong enough to be a combatant and go on planet-killing raids. From what we know of Raditz, he is more than powerful enough to kill all life on a planet, so I think it's appropriate. In another interview, Toriyama has said that most Saiyans are Low-Class, as well as clarifying that there are three classes: low, medium, and elite, so there is a distinction between the two classifications.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#70127: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:54:26 AM

Come to think of it, we don't really know what the standard power level for a low ranking warrior in the planet trade (Saiyan or otherwise) was.

I mean, Vegeta considered Raditz weak, but up until Goku got all his training (both then Kaioken and then the 50 times gravity training) every Saiyan was weak compared to him, so his opinion is skewed.

And while Raditz is incredibly weak by the standards of the villains who would follow, it may be that it's because those dudes were ridiculously strong.

I can't recall what baby Goku's Power Level was when he was sent to Earth. We might use that to extrapolate things.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70128: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:55:35 AM

The next weakest Saiyan after Raditz that we have a power level for is Fasha from Bardock's team, at 2000. She's by far the weakest of Bardock's team as well, who all have power levels from 4000-5000.

For the record, Freeza's soldier Appule has a power level of 1'520 in the latest databook.

edited 30th Nov '17 11:57:04 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#70129: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:57:02 AM

Are any of those levels stated in the special?

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70130: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:57:53 AM

Cuz she's a woman.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70131: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:58:21 AM

No but apparently dubious sources is fair game for this argument (her power level is stated in a trading card game).

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#70132: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:58:35 AM

[up]

The funny thing is, that's my exact thought on why she's weaker.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#70133: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:59:09 AM

Bardock's team was exceptional. That's why Frieza had them all murdered. Their growth, particularly Bardock spurred on his already genocidal thoughts. So that really doesn't help your argument.

edited 30th Nov '17 11:59:59 AM by LSBK

Arachosia from United States Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#70134: Nov 30th 2017 at 12:00:38 PM

Curious. Am I alone in feeling how Toriyama, or whoever, is actively trying to shave off the “hard edges” of this story? I remember Dragon Ball used to have more... grit. Like this new revelation of how the OG Super Saiyan was “righteous”, along with his 5 comrades. I mean, I guess I was wrong in having this false impression of how the OG SSJ was a blood-thirty killing machine who destroyed the Saiyan’s original home world cause he went ape shit and couldn’t handle that amount of power. I noticed the same thing happened with Bardock too.

If I had to guess, I think some people became uncomfortable with the fact that their favorite characters are morally reprehensible people. So a “change” needed to take place.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70135: Nov 30th 2017 at 12:07:09 PM

I'll leave the Raditz topic here as it doesn't seem we'll be able to hammer down a precise number as to the "average Saiyan". I just think it's hilarious that the weakest Saiyan we've met by some distance is considered a "highly ranked" one. Also, Fasha was half the power of the guy above her, I don't think she was the sort of person Freeza was talking about. Now, some 4000-10000 type guys, especially if they're what low class Saiyans can become, now those are dangerous.

But I agree, Dragonball's undergone a series of retcons (most egregiously, Dragonball Minus) that are really taking away from what I found most interesting about the Saiyans and Goku's backstory.

Bardock's character has been absolutely pillaged, all the more insulting because Toriyama didn't come up with him. He was fantastic in the original TV special and only gone downhill from there. (What is it with these kickass TV specials? History of Trunks was the same, really good)

edited 30th Nov '17 12:12:22 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#70136: Nov 30th 2017 at 12:16:43 PM

10,000 is King Vegeta. Before his son completely blew all expectations for Saiyan power out of the water, that was the absolute maximum a Saiyan was thought to get.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70137: Nov 30th 2017 at 12:30:34 PM

Its "funny" because the characters are so far ahead of that level of power, but we forget there was a time when a power level like Raditz's was considered a big deal.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70138: Nov 30th 2017 at 12:34:31 PM

That moment lasted until he was dead and we heard the next two villains call him a weakling on his scouter.

Every highest power is a big deal. Yamcha was a big deal once. Roshi was a big deal once.

edited 30th Nov '17 12:35:25 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#70139: Nov 30th 2017 at 1:21:30 PM

I'm only disappointed with Gine and bardock being Lighter and Softer. I miss rogue space pirate Bardock.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70140: Nov 30th 2017 at 1:27:15 PM

[up][up] Yea, that's kind of the point. Just because there were more powerful villains later doesn't suddenly invalidate how strong Raditz was at the time.

By your logic, Goku was a weakling too at the time since he was even weaker than Raditz.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#70141: Nov 30th 2017 at 1:31:24 PM

I never understood why people think Raditz is weak especially since he was pretty strong when he first appeared.

"Mai waifu."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#70142: Nov 30th 2017 at 1:32:17 PM

I imagine Team Four Star has helped with that.

They might also have played a role in the upswing of Yamcha mockery as well.

One Strip! One Strip!
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#70143: Nov 30th 2017 at 1:32:24 PM

I think what's really shocking in hindsight is that once upon a time fucking Cui used to be one of Universe 7's strongest warriors.

edited 30th Nov '17 1:32:37 PM by Lionheart0

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#70144: Nov 30th 2017 at 1:46:38 PM

Removing Buu, Beerus, and Whis from the equation, he would be just under Top 10, huh?

Dabura > Frieza > King Cold > Ginyu Force > Zarbon > Dodoria > Cui

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#70146: Nov 30th 2017 at 1:53:34 PM

The power average of the other universes seems a lot stronger than Universe 7. Universe 7 has some of the strongest in the tournament, but Universe 7's teams are complete exceptions. Frieza was the strongest mortal before he trained. Ginyu was regarded as the strongest mortal behind King Cold, Frieza and potentially other members of his mysterious species despite being 0.1% the strength of Frieza. And Zarbon and Dodoria were the strongest non-Ginyu force, non-Frieza types despite being less than half Ginyu's strength.

In other words, were it not for our heroes Universe 7 would be utterly pathetic mortal-wise. I doubt that has much to do with the average mortal level, but it's still a sign of how ludicrous the power jumps have gotten

GOI god of insanity from everywhere/nowhere Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
god of insanity
#70147: Nov 30th 2017 at 1:54:11 PM

Goku when he was first introduced(or in the Pilaf saga(since I'm not sure if that was the first one)) was 10 and if we assume it rose since he was on earth then no wonder Goku was considered weak by Vegeta and that. Raditz was 1500 Vegeta was 18000 uhh that mean Cui was as strong as Vegeta in the Sayian saga so yeah he was surprisingly strong from Daizenshuu 7, Vol. 21, #249

Also goddamm Zenkai boosts vary so much in terms of how much extra power you get from them

The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success. Insanity runs in my family. It practically gallops.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#70148: Nov 30th 2017 at 1:54:27 PM

I think what's really shocking in hindsight is that once upon a time fucking Cui used to be one of Universe 7's strongest warriors.

That's because Toriyama hypes up certain dudes as being the biggest dogs in the yard entirely so that the guy they are fighting will look even better when they beat said big dog.

Cui is King Chappa: there to be hyped up and beaten, and nothing more.

edited 30th Nov '17 1:55:00 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#70149: Nov 30th 2017 at 1:56:01 PM

I suppose it does say quite a bit when one guy was able to create several people who were stronger than everyone else up to that point.

edited 30th Nov '17 2:44:11 PM by LordVatek

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DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#70150: Nov 30th 2017 at 2:11:08 PM

Ginyu was regarded as the strongest mortal behind King Cold, Frieza and potentially other members of his mysterious species

I just want to point out that it's been said that Freeza and his father are mutants, and their ridiculous strength is not normal among their species.

edited 30th Nov '17 2:11:58 PM by DarkHunter


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