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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#70101: Nov 30th 2017 at 10:20:26 AM

Somone link Abridged-Reccome's speech to Vegeta.

I feel it is important in this particular situation.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#70102: Nov 30th 2017 at 10:25:02 AM

@Moth: Also, have any of the Daizenshuu been translated into English, even unofficially? Just that it's difficult to check something that's in a language you can't read.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70103: Nov 30th 2017 at 10:31:57 AM

The saibamen actually bother me in general because they're near brought up again and they offer basically no downsides -just a couple of instant mooks that are still not too weak by the galaxy's standards when used as a group of say, five or six.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#70104: Nov 30th 2017 at 10:41:59 AM

Given their strength, it's likely that they're either the dominant species of their own planet or they're created in a lab as bio-weapons. Given that we never see them used again after their first appearance, it's possible that they're hard to get and Nappa had some because Vegeta's a really big deal in Freeza's army.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#70105: Nov 30th 2017 at 10:43:46 AM

The Saibamen being PTO bioweapons would make the most sense, I think.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#70106: Nov 30th 2017 at 10:45:36 AM

Keep in mind that the strength of Saibamen seems to depend on the soil they're grown in.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#70107: Nov 30th 2017 at 10:50:14 AM

I cannot take this stupid dragon god's size seriously. He dwarf galaxies? This is meaningless.

Also, they didn't need the super dragon balls to grant that wish, did they?

Oh yeah and I was right about Beerus' wish.

edited 30th Nov '17 10:50:31 AM by Arha

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#70108: Nov 30th 2017 at 10:50:46 AM

Okay, but if you tell people "No. Ignore what was clearly stated in the show you watched. You're wrong because of this entry in some obscure interview or guidebook" and expect to be taken seriously, that's not going to go well. Especially because the difference in power after the retcon isn't even that much to begin with, so it comes off like you're trying to shut down people based on semantics.

The crux of practically every Dragonball discussion. Particularly because Word of God is contrasted by Toriyama's Shrug of God attitude.

edited 30th Nov '17 10:51:08 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#70109: Nov 30th 2017 at 10:53:35 AM

I cannot take this stupid dragon god's size seriously. He dwarf galaxies? This is meaningless.

Did you see the "animation" for him growing in size. It looked like someone just blew up the image. [lol]

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70110: Nov 30th 2017 at 10:53:40 AM

So they have a limited lifecycle then? Otherwise they'd just grow them all strong on one planet.

My main problem is that all this is stuff we have to think of "why aren't they doing X" instead of a quick explanation being given.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#70111: Nov 30th 2017 at 10:58:54 AM

@Moth 13, honestly without trying to be too snarky here, I have to point out how approximations work, and that stating things are approximately the same also implicitly says they are not the same and putting actual numbers to it later doesn't actually change that.

Saying the Saibamen are roughly or around Raditz's power still means they are weaker than him. I'm not really sure what else to say, and knowing how these conversations go, I don't think I'll particularly want to continue this line of discussion with you anyway. It's pointless.

edited 30th Nov '17 11:00:18 AM by LSBK

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70112: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:03:42 AM

Roughly around could also imply that they are slightly stronger and either way the fact that Raditz is at best only *slightly* better than plant men that can be grown in a matter of seconds doesn't speak well of him.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#70113: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:05:25 AM

That's only because you started with the underlying assumption that "Raditz sucks" and everything else follow through from that, resulting in other assumptions you shouldn't be making.

Bu I'm not really sure what the point is if people keep explaining why and you just keep repeating the same things without change.

edited 30th Nov '17 11:06:49 AM by LSBK

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70114: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:10:41 AM

I'm not starting from the assumption Raditz sucks, I think based on his shockingly poor performance and the fact that plant men are at worst slightly weaker than him means that he sucks.

Your argument, on the other hand, relies not only on a dubious databook but on totally misunderstanding what approximations are.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#70115: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:14:37 AM

Those plant men are 5 times stronger than a world conquering demon alien. Saying they're weak is just wrong.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70116: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:17:40 AM

Conquering Earth is not that impressive. They sent Goku, a low class Saiyan, to destroy us all after all.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#70117: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:17:41 AM

[up][up]Yamcha was able to fight on par with one of said plant men. If we can't call the Saibamen weak, we can't call Yamcha weak either, and that's a privilege few people in this thread would be willing to part with.

edited 30th Nov '17 11:17:51 AM by TyeDyeWildebeest

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#70118: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:18:32 AM

What terrible performance? He was wiping the floor with Piccolo and Goku for the most of the fight, and they only really had a chance after Gohan rage boosted out of nowhere to injure him.

No, I think I understand what approximations are and I'll take a databook over fan opinion, sorry.

Your entire argument just seems to rely on the rest of the universe being much stronger than it's actually implied to be.

edited 30th Nov '17 11:19:39 AM by LSBK

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#70119: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:19:45 AM

What if Nappa turned good?

...what was wrong with this one?

edited 30th Nov '17 11:24:21 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70120: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:20:59 AM

Heck, Yamcha drubbed that saibaman and was only killed when it sacrificed itself to do so. Heck, considering how relatively skilled Yamcha is, he could have beaten Raditz at that point.

"Hey Vegeta, looks like their Raditz is still stronger than our Raditz."

edited 30th Nov '17 11:22:11 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#70121: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:23:22 AM

After training with a God.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#70122: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:36:53 AM

You keep equating skill with strength, and are assuming that Yamcha is also weak by universal standards.

This whole Saibaman - Raditz argument seems to assume that the Saibamen must be weak just because they're artificially grown, when there's actually no reason to believe this either.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#70123: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:44:54 AM

I'm saying that Raditz wouldn't count as a "higher ranked" Saiyan warrior, not that he's weak by universal standards.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#70124: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:47:33 AM

Well, that's a different can of worms.

If you object to the terminology because it's inconsistent that's one thing, but if it's because you assume that Raditz must be weak by Saiyan standards there's not a lot backing that up either so...yeah.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#70125: Nov 30th 2017 at 11:52:00 AM

Sigil, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the strength presented by the likes of Goku, Vegeta and their children is abnormal by Saiyan standards. They're not supposed to be that strong and the fact that they are is noted as being highly unusual.

Raditz is strong by "normal" Saiyan standards, but Vegeta is noted as being a Saiyan elite.

You're basically saying because he's weaker than Vegeta and Nappa, he must be a weakling overall, but his fight with Goku and Piccolo debunks that, something that you keep ignoring to push your point on "Lol Raditz sucks" and the fact you're quoting TFS memes only makes this more obvious.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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