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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#69926: Nov 28th 2017 at 8:11:53 PM

I think if you're dumb enough to:

1. Spare an enemy who killed half of your group of strongest fighters, who is actively strong enough to blow up the Earth if he gets some rest and who you only defeated through luck

2. Give a healing herb to a biological abomination who is not only a fair bit stronger than you, currently the strongest man on the planet, but someone who you have no idea how to actually kill anyway *and* someone who is about to fight your son AND is definitely going to blow up the entire planet if he wins

Then it doesn't *matter* if you're malicious or not, you're a huge danger to everyone around you.

I'm not gonna give Z a pass for this. If Super Goku is dumb and a problem for people then he's just doing it on a bigger scale than in Z.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
felipelight Teacher from Undisclosed Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Teacher
#69927: Nov 28th 2017 at 9:06:20 PM

Am I the only one who thinks that Trunk's SSJ rage makes sense? I mean he was an apprentice kaioshin so he might have tapped onto God energy. Make that he did, as Zamasu in goku's body got the equivalent of SSG just by trading souls

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#69928: Nov 28th 2017 at 9:07:08 PM

I think the manga should get a lot of credit for *not* having that moment where Trunks somehow learns the spirit bomb and creates a reasonably sized one from 100 regular humans.

I both totally agree with you, and also like the Spirit Sword. This is a problem that could have been solved by just having King Kai and Trunks actually interact. True, he's likely dead in Trunks time since Black went around kicking the ass of every god in existence who wasn't Zen-O, but if Toriyama had bothered they could have met years earlier.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#69929: Nov 28th 2017 at 9:10:39 PM

I don't mind Trunks having bootleg SSG, but I do wish they'd have explained it (your explanation would have taken, what, a line or two and been perfectly servicable). Heck, I don't even mind him landing the final smackdown since Goku and Vegeta had loosed the jar of space pickles so to speak and Fused Zamasu was falling to bits anyway. I just wish he had some better way of doing it than one that didn't make sense for at least three different reasons.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
felipelight Teacher from Undisclosed Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Teacher
#69930: Nov 28th 2017 at 9:11:53 PM

Isn't the spirit bomb a 'godly' technique? Maybe his kaioshin training boosted the spirit bomb

Jedi1113 Since: Jun, 2009
#69931: Nov 28th 2017 at 9:12:08 PM

Trunks didn't create that spirit bomb. He in fact seem surprised by it. He just channeled it into his sword. It is still bs those humans were enough though.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#69932: Nov 28th 2017 at 9:16:16 PM

I don't mind Trunks having bootleg SSG, but I do wish they'd have explained it (your explanation would have taken, what, a line or two and been perfectly servicable). Heck, I don't even mind him landing the final smackdown since Goku and Vegeta had loosed the jar of space pickles so to speak and Fused Zamasu was falling to bits anyway. I just wish he had some better way of doing it than one that didn't make sense for at least three different reasons.

I admit, I don't mind it either. As you said, they just needed to explain it, instead they don't even bother. It's like, if you're gonna do this shit, don't be lazy about it.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#69933: Nov 28th 2017 at 9:18:53 PM

Was he using that form with the Spirit Sword?

Cause if not then it was a pointless transformation.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#69934: Nov 28th 2017 at 9:29:23 PM

No. He was a normal Super Saiyan if I remember.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#69935: Nov 28th 2017 at 9:30:34 PM

Then its a pointless transformation.

Throwing Black around one time in an encounter that didn't even majorly impede him in any way does not justify its existence.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#69936: Nov 28th 2017 at 9:33:25 PM

I'm not gonna give Z a pass for this. If Super Goku is dumb and a problem for people then he's just doing it on a bigger scale than in Z.

Difference is there was at least a logical thread behind his actions in Z. They may have been selfish, and you can definitely disagree with them, but there was actual thought behind his actions.

Goku gives Cell a senzu bean because Gohan was already stronger than him anyway. Goku leaves it to Goten and Trunks to kill Majin Buu because it's not up to the dead to protect the living world. And the few times that there aren't, like sparring Piccolo and Vegeta so that he can have rematches with them, he flat out admits his actual motive.

Goku in Super though? Not even close.

edited 28th Nov '17 9:35:17 PM by Lionheart0

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#69937: Nov 28th 2017 at 10:26:01 PM

[up] Beat me to it.

I'm aware that he is dangerous and was not trying to argue otherwise. I think he's a terrible savior and a danger to everyone around him, that is not something I blame Super for.

I think Super lacks the understandable logic that Goku had for these things.

There's another issue, where I feel Goku's issues should either lead to character development or him stepping down due to his danger. Z was doing that, but reversed it in the end which I have always been critical of.

Super has kept Goku as the main character, on top of using him even more AND doing nothing to have him drop such dangerous behaviour. And then they flanderize his character further.

That's all well worth criticism.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#69938: Nov 28th 2017 at 10:31:57 PM

There's another issue, where I feel Goku's issues should either lead to character development

I recall posting a video from Masako stating that Toriyama has deliberately avoided much in the way of Character Development for Goku insisting he remain an ignorant bumpkin, but maybe I'm misremembering. I'll have to see if I can dig it up some time later.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#69939: Nov 28th 2017 at 10:33:56 PM

[up] I don't like that.

It just feels wrong to have a character never change in his life despite all the people around him does.

I get if its just keeping the spirit but this is a deeper issue than that.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#69940: Nov 28th 2017 at 10:39:35 PM

Being static but, by his very nature, changing the people around him is a major aspect of Goku's character and role in Dragonball's story, and one of the main reasons he has a rotating group of supporting characters in the first place. He doesn't necessarily need to have character development, as he's ultimately not that kind of character.

The problem is when character traits and flaws are added that don't go anywhere but mess with the character, or even set-up for development that doesn't actually happen. And much as I give it a pass sometimes, Super does this with a lot of things - not just Goku.

edited 28th Nov '17 10:39:45 PM by KnownUnknown

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#69941: Nov 28th 2017 at 10:43:59 PM

Yeah, really, Dragonball is a series that has gone on for way, waaaay longer than it should have. A lot of its jokes are a bit tired and worn, the powersets have basically become just recolours of each other (I mean, come on, 90% of the attacks boil down to "fires ki blast") and the characters have grown stale. I'm a big dragonball fan and I even think Super has some genuinely great moments... but at the same time it's sort of like an old actor you respected putting on a toupee, tucking the paunch into the shirt and still playing the same old roles. You're always going to love them for what they did in the past and what they inspired, but at the same time you just sort of wish they'd retire or do something else.

Like, Battle of Gods sort of accidentally gave the franchise a massive shot in the arm with Beerus and it all felt so innocent for a while, but just compare Beerus to say, Jiren, and it's clear that what makes Dragonball good is charm and comedy, and when that slips you're just left with boring meatheads slugging it out for literally no reason.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#69942: Nov 28th 2017 at 10:46:03 PM

Static characters are fine, as is the idea of Goku being an unchanging person.

But usually the unchanging people are that way because they have a strong moral core, and they don't change because they're stable. Goku's negative traits conflict with that, and I don't think you should have that conflict if you aren't going to do anything with it.

Unchanging traits for protagonists shouldn't usually be "is a huge danger to everyone around them"

[up] I disagree entirely. I don't need ki attacks to be unique or anything like that for the story to be interesting. Hit isn't any more comedic than Jiren but he's still an interesting character.

edited 28th Nov '17 10:47:33 PM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#69943: Nov 28th 2017 at 10:47:44 PM

The current arc was pushing the idea of "Goku's flippant attitude towards the gods and lust for battle is actually incredibly dangerous and has serious consequences" for a while there, so maybe something will come of that. I still remember how shocking and tense it was when Beerus actually threatened to Destroy Goku if he didn't give up on the multiversal tournament. Especially Goku openly defying the God of Destruction of his universe to go ask Zen-Oh anyway.

I also like the idea of all the other universes labelling Goku as the Most Evil Mortal Ever because he suggested the tournament. It's a fun reversal, especially how Goku eggs them on, hoping it'll elicit a better fight. It feels like all of the worst aspects of Goku's personality are finally being focused on as actual character flaws that affect how others perceive him.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#69944: Nov 28th 2017 at 10:47:46 PM

Watching Kai & Super back to back, its sad.

I'm gonna miss Goku's characterization when Kai ends.

[up][up] Which is why Manga-Jiren is superior. There is honest to goodness character & genuine conflict there.

edited 28th Nov '17 10:48:35 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#69945: Nov 28th 2017 at 10:52:58 PM

[up][up]Yeah it seemed like it was going interesting places. It's a shame they rolled that back so hard and so quickly.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#69946: Nov 28th 2017 at 11:48:02 PM

Hit throwing the fight like that was predictable but still funny.

And here comes the biggest sociopath in the series.

edited 28th Nov '17 11:48:22 PM by Arha

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#69947: Nov 28th 2017 at 11:56:31 PM

Weird I don't remember Roshi making an appearance there.

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#69948: Nov 29th 2017 at 12:30:12 AM

"Sociopath", not "Rapist", Saiga.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#69949: Nov 29th 2017 at 12:37:37 AM

I thought the biggest sociopath in the series was Oozaru Vegeta.

...

Because he's a giant ape, you see...

edited 29th Nov '17 12:37:48 AM by KnownUnknown

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#69950: Nov 29th 2017 at 12:57:20 AM

Nappa's bigger...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.

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