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Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69826: Nov 28th 2017 at 11:35:03 AM

You can't really blame Piccolo for that one since he went to kill 17 before Cell could absorb him. It just didn't work out as he'd hoped.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#69827: Nov 28th 2017 at 11:38:30 AM

I mean, aside from wanting to be brought to Namek in the Freeza saga and a few mistakes in his fight with Goku, I don't think Piccolo ever makes a flat out strategic error in the entire series.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#69828: Nov 28th 2017 at 11:40:22 AM

He was kinda doomed to fail. He and 17 were equally matched in power, so his only chance was to scored a lucky hit...which he almost did with the Hellzone Grenade, but 17 asspulled the barrier.

He likely would have lost since he was getting more tired as the fight dragged on, and as I said, while could have accomplished his goal by taking a pot shot at 18, 16 would have protected her.

There was literally no chance for him to pull off his plan. It basically did nothing but give us a good fight. A very good fight, but still.

One Strip! One Strip!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#69829: Nov 28th 2017 at 11:41:39 AM

[up][up]In his fight with Karrot he was evil, therefore it's in his biology to make dumb mistakes...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#69830: Nov 28th 2017 at 11:43:17 AM

[up][up] Man that fight was brutal.

At least 17 is getting a chance to show off again.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#69831: Nov 28th 2017 at 12:58:23 PM

The whole "Super Saiyan 2 was not sonething other Saiyans could achieve" is pure fanon. Point me to where it says that. It doesn't, anywhere.

Gohan achieved it because of his potential, but that just means he achieved it ahead of the others. It took a lot of training for Goku and Vegeta to reach that level afterwards.

No-one in universe ever treated it like a Gohan-only thing.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#69832: Nov 28th 2017 at 1:10:36 PM

You're right in that "SSJ 2 being Gohan only was fanon" mainly because it wasn't originally a separate thing from SSJ 1. It was just Gohan getting reaaaaally angry and letting out all his repressed inner rage and power. Originally it was Gohan's inner potential that later got retconned into being the Mystic form he got in the Buu saga.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#69833: Nov 28th 2017 at 1:12:05 PM

I don't like that Dragon Ball has been stereotyped as the "hold the line and wait for Goku" show, since that only actually happened 4 times in the series, 3 in the same Saga. Before the Saiyans, relegating the supporting cast to the role of holding the line and waiting for Goku to arrive and Deus ex Machina the villains away was unheard of. Suddenly, we have three examples of this back-to-back: against Nappa and Vegeta, the Ginyu Force, and Freeza. The only other time this has ever happened in Dragon Ball was Resurrection 'F'.

Goku coming in to save everyone wouldn't really be so bad if they were spaced out a little but Goku contributes literally nothing to the plot in-between these. He's just written out of the plot for large stretches of time until it's convenient for him to become a Deus ex Machina again, which is a really shitty way to write your main character. The Saiyan/Namek Saga has really fallen from grace in my eyes over time as I learned more and more about how to create a good story. Treating your main character as a plot device with no involvement with the story for large periods of time is bad writing.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#69834: Nov 28th 2017 at 1:13:07 PM

It happens in the King Piccolo arc as well. As for the Saiyan Saga, I'm willing to give it a little credit because it's executed pretty well, and characters aren't useless after Goku gets there. Heck, Goku gets the stuffing beaten out of him by Vegeta's ape form and has to be protected by his comrades for the entire rest of the battle which lasts for ages.

edited 28th Nov '17 1:15:11 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#69835: Nov 28th 2017 at 1:15:59 PM

It kind of happens in the Cell Saga only with dashes of Vegeta saying "We don't need to wait for him" and then proving that they do. It's then subverted at the end when they realize that crap, Goku can't help.

Also a decent chunk of the Buu saga was specifically trying to subvert the wait for Goku thing right up until they realize that they do need him.

This song needs more love.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#69836: Nov 28th 2017 at 1:18:45 PM

The Buu saga is "wait for Gohan" then Gohan screws up so it's back to "wait for Goku".

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69837: Nov 28th 2017 at 1:18:57 PM

Yea, Goku starts becoming more of a plot device as time goes on.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#69838: Nov 28th 2017 at 1:20:52 PM

Goku coming in to save the day was in the King Piccolo arc, but the amount of time he was out of commission was minimal, and no-one was actively waiting for him to show up. Everyone kind of assumed he was dead or out of commission while he was drinking the Super Holy Water.

Similar thing with the Android Saga: he's out of commission for a little bit with the heart virus and training Gohan in the Chamber, but he's not strong enough to help anyone after he gets better and he doesn't get out of the Chamber in time to save anyone from Cell, so neither really counts as an example.

edited 28th Nov '17 1:21:16 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#69839: Nov 28th 2017 at 1:36:16 PM

I mean, in the Android Arc I suppose it's subverted since ultimately he doesn't have what it takes to tussle with Perfect Cell and when he does save everyone it's at the cost of his own life.

But can we all agree it's at its absolute worst in the Freeza saga? Mistare Fusion of the Dragonball Dissection Reviews probably says it best: Goku doesn't belong here (on Namek).

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#69840: Nov 28th 2017 at 1:40:34 PM

Here's a thought that occurred to me: barring the usual suspects (Hit, Jiren), who among the participants of the Tournament of Power so far could possibly have a chance at defeating Majin Buu? Because while Buu is far weaker now than he was during his own arc, his skill set makes a good baseline as far as strength goes.

I mean, for example, I don't think any of the Trio de Dangers can hold a candle to Buu at his best.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#69841: Nov 28th 2017 at 1:58:32 PM

Depends on how strong you think the Saiyans are right now. If you think the base Saiyans are stronger than SS3 Gotenks, then almost everybody in the tournament could beat Buu. If you think Goku has a second level of power in his base form that he uses to go Super Saiyan Blue and his base for his yellow Super Saiyans is between Namek Saga Freeza and Android Saga 18 in terms of power, then Buu could beat most of the fighters here. He'd lose to people like Maji=Kayo and Dyspo, maybe Obuni, but he'd win against Monna and everyone weaker than her, which is all of U9, almost all of U10, and almost all of U4.

It also kind of depends on how strong Fit Buu is compared to when he was fat, if his performance against Goku is any indication, he might be a lot stronger than I'm giving him credit for. Still nowhere near Golden Freeza, though.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#69842: Nov 28th 2017 at 3:16:31 PM

Uh, no. Super Saiyan 2 was ALSO always a separate form. After an arc of finding ways to transform beyond Super Saiyan, it should be obvious that is what he did. And we see him turn back into a regular Super Saiyan and back into Super Saiyan 2 in the same arc, just like how Goku changed back to normal and back into Super Saiyan against Freeza.

It was always identical in function to the other transformations, qnd nothing was retconned about Gohan's potential - getting your power unlocked is never a one-time deal, as teen Goku and Namek arc Gohan showed. Super Saiyan 2 is not the ultimate manifestation of Gohan's potential, it's merely a symptom of it. Another piece of fanon.

Edit: while I agree that Goku being sidelined twice on Namek was a bad idea (he shouldn't come in for the Ginyus if he's not ready for Freeza) I do like the general trend of keeping him out to reserve him for the big moments and focus on the other characters. Ginyu Force aside, I don't find that bad writing at all and have gained more appreciation for it after coming back into the series.

edited 28th Nov '17 3:20:27 PM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#69843: Nov 28th 2017 at 3:23:52 PM

I think there's a reason the trope is called Time to Unlock More True Potential :P

Either way... it was only a different transformation in the same way that the Ascended Super Saiyan transformation was a different transformation. The whole, 2, 3 thing really only popped around the next arc. And given how much narration was going on about "Gohan has shown flashes of this power throughout his life" I think it's pretty clear that this power was originally supposed to be Gohan only just like what Mystic has become. It's not that anymore, certainly, but I don't think it's fanon to say that that's what it felt like it was originally to a lot of people.

Now if you look back in hindsight then yeah, it's just another transformation. But I highly doubt it was intended as that at the time.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#69844: Nov 28th 2017 at 3:32:10 PM

It is 5000% fanon because it comes only from the fans. The idea that it was ever Gohan-only when Super Saiyan was given to everyone is just silly. There has never been anything to indicate the form would be exclusive to him.

You don't need hindsight. Looking JUST at the arc it was introduced in, it is obviously a transformation. It has everything in common with other transformations, and nothing to indicate it represents anything else.

edited 28th Nov '17 3:33:29 PM by Saiga

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#69845: Nov 28th 2017 at 3:52:17 PM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#69846: Nov 28th 2017 at 3:54:55 PM

Hey, this is the longest What if Series Masako's done without Vegeta dying. And I don't think there's any glaring inconsistencies or false information in this one.

EDIT: But it is still adorable how he continues to be baffled by "What if Raditz was good" being popular, as though it weren't one of the most widely-used DBZ What-ifs of all time, right alongside "What if Goku didn't hit his head" and "What if Gohan were evil"

edited 28th Nov '17 3:55:47 PM by SonOfSharknado

My various fanfics.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#69847: Nov 28th 2017 at 3:57:47 PM

...why would Gohan be evil?

One Strip! One Strip!
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#69848: Nov 28th 2017 at 3:58:56 PM

[up][up]You mean he doesn't know that "Raditz becomes a good guy" is the central premise for possibly the longest DBZ fanfic ever written?

[up]During his training for Nappa and Vegeta's arrival, Piccolo just decided to raise Gohan as evil.

edited 28th Nov '17 4:00:13 PM by MightyMatilda

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#69849: Nov 28th 2017 at 4:00:20 PM

I don't know, maybe if Piccolo rubbed off on him more instead of the other way around or to go the TFS route he become super bitter about Goku's parenting.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#69850: Nov 28th 2017 at 4:01:05 PM

[up][up][up] Kidnapped by Raditz, kidnapped by Freeza, Majin Gohan, take your pick.

[up]up] Clearly not, as he was equally surprised that people were into Raditz and Launch as a pairing.

edited 28th Nov '17 4:01:24 PM by SonOfSharknado

My various fanfics.

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