Yeah, I'll give Super credit, it generally uses the cast a lot better.
To be honest, this isn't a problem I solely have with DB. Cast bloat is at least as common a problem as power creep for action shonen and DB doesn't even suffer from it nearly as much as most.
I think it's just noticable since they are so vestigal to everything in Z. They don't even really get the secondary fights with throwaway villains as bones thrown to the dogs. They're just... there.
edited 27th Nov '17 10:21:03 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Super Saiyan 2 was never unique to Gohan's biology. That's really silly, and would actually make it less special if he only achieved it because the other Saiyans were banned from it.
Given how every other transformation worked, and they acknowledged it as the 'correct' way to surpass Super Saiyan, it was always a normal Saiyan form.
Anyway, on Kaio-ken not being widespread due to difficulty - I'm aware of that, but I think that's an insufficient answer. You've still got other geniuses, like Vegeta, or the potential of the hybrid Saiyans which let them develop much faster. You've also got enemies like Cell or Boo who instantly copy techniques. Super Saiyan being incompatible with Kaio-ken sorts most of the Saiyans (and potentially Cell, given his DNA and Super Saiyan similarities) but if Goku had shown Kaio-ken in front of Boo, would he instantly become 20x stronger and thrash everyone? What about future characters, like Beerus? Anyone who could potentially learn Kaio-ken is basically fighting at one twentieth of what we know of their potential, and that's completely ignoring that the Kaio-ken doesn't actually have an established cap.
And even if it took Goku the better part of a year to learn it alongside the Genki Dama, the humans have had several years. Piccolo trained with Goku for three years straight, and could train with him after. It seems to be pushing it for them to be never capable of learning it, but I do accept that since it's better for the story that way.
For a character to job effectively they need to have some standard of power that beating them is impressive but even before Super Saiyan changed the game the humans were well, well behind Goku.
Actually, that seen still has a narrative purpose: it establishes Gero's energy absorbing powers. It also gives Yamcha a reason to leave when Goku needs to be taken back.
Toriyama was well aware of the importance of jobbers, and that's why he stopped using the humans as dedicated jobbers after Nappa, because he'd stopped giving them power-ups that gave us a frame of reference.
edited 28th Nov '17 1:22:56 AM by Saiga
Gohan getting SSJ 2 was originally because he had massive hidden potential. It wasn't originally something any Saiyan could do - (though, the same goes for SSJ 1 too originally).
Heck, I don't think it's even called SSJ 2 till the Buu saga. Originally it was just Gohan's awakened power.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Or Super Saiyan Grade 5. People called it that. The potential thing was never contradicted, though. Goku and Vegeta had to train and fight well into their adult lives before they could do what Gohan could at 11. 10? When he was hella' young. He'd still be stronger than the entire cast if he wasn't a responsible husband and father huge nerd.
Well, part of me sees the logic in that (and yeah, someone needed to take Goku back when he could no longer fight), but it kinda comes back to him always choosing Yamcha for that role. I suppose he just figured that after years of using him like that, why change it up now.
Did Piccolo ask to learn it? I mean, none of the Z Warriors teach each other their techniques. They all seem to learn through just watching. You brought up Vegeta, but considering he's the fricking embodiment of Pride (in this series) I can totally get him refusing to ask Goku and relying on his own methods because that's who he is.
Now, I do wonder how things would have faired if Toriyama had thought to do the things with Goku Instant Transmissioning himself to King Kai a little sooner. Like the other three all ask him if he can get them to King Kai's and they train there for those three years.
Not that I expect any of them to do anything.
My ultimate issue is that it would have been nice if he'd seen them as more than jobbers. Obviously, this would have needed to happen earlier in the story, as it's far too late by even the end of the 23rd Budokai, but that would have required him to want to spend time with characters besides Goku for a reason beyond Goku's not here! What do we do now!?
One Strip! One Strip!The annoying thing is, Toriyama *can* handle an ensemble cast. Look at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai arc. You've got a fairly big cast there but they're all used pretty well (even more so in the anime). Everyone gets a pretty respectable fight. Yamcha loses to Tien, but he gives a really good account of himself. Roshi - sorry, Jackie Chun, don't know why I get those two mixed up - also loses to Tien, but is able to cement himself as a fantastic mentor figure and also goes out gracefully. Heck, Krillin not only wins his match against Chaotzu, he gives Goku an amazingly hard time despite being outmatched in power and pushes Goku to his limits to win. However, this doesn't cheat Goku out of good moments. He clearly has the edge in his fight with Krillin throughout and gets a really good fight with Tien as well that shows his strengths as a martial artist.
So it's not that Toriyama *can't* write a story that plays to the strengths of the cast at large. He just doesn't do it throughout Z.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Because that was the point when the story Toriyama wanted to tell could use those character's. After Z started and Goku was revealed to having a racial trait that inherently makes him grow stronger, he needed stronger opponents that could match him.
The ceiling simply got too high for any of them to keep up, and there's no point in keeping those characters around when they're too weak to be of any real use.
You can chalk it up to the inherent flaw of constantly adhering to Serial Escalation (and that's if you even consider it a flaw). Toriyama had to keep coming up with ways for Goku to get stronger and have opponents for him to fight.
Having lesser characters stick around when there are literal gods fighting isn't really that interesting to me.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.What's the point of interest about that if they aren't suppose to fight anyway?
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.There was absolutely no reason the humans couldn't still remain relevant (if definitely firmly supporting characters) with a bit of smarter combat writing, but my main problem is why are several of them kept around when they contribute precisely nothing to the story? I would prefer if they were dead or simply left out of the story instead of becoming an impotent cheer team.
They're too weak to fight anything that comes up and they have no other real skills to provide backup like people like Bulma or Dende could with science or healing. It doesn't help that after the Saiyan Saga numbers are basically useless as well; they can't even achieve anything by ganging up on people anymore.
But that aside, I do actually consider it a flaw when shonen don't handle the cast right. You can still have serial escalation and a main hero significantly more powerful than the surrounding cast while not making those cast members totally useless. Look at Yu Yu Hakusho. Yusuke is definitely the strongest in his team but each member has their own specific speciality in attacks and their own strengths and weaknesses. The battles throughout, say, the Dark Tournament got tougher and tougher but the team were all able to contribute. I consider that a lot more entertaining than "sit tight and wait for Goku". I don't mind Goku handling all the major villains, I don't hate Goku. But you don't need to shaft the rest of the cast while that happens.
Yes, Goku has gotten really really strong. But Master Roshi was introduced as the strongest man on the planet. It's not exactly stretching the suspension of disbelief to occassionally throw some of the rest of the cast a bone or two, that's been one of the things I think Super has really succeeded at (not gonna be so mean as to say it's the *only* thing, but.... it wouldn't be totally wrong either).
edited 28th Nov '17 10:49:07 AM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Hey, if they can justify having Batman on a team with Superman and Wonder Woman, or Hawkeye on a team with Hulk and Thor...
No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!First of all, Tien, Yamcha and Chaotzu could have retired after the King Piccolo arc and it wouldn't have meant a blind bit of difference because they actually don't matter to the plot after that except as people Goku needs to ressurect. They accomplish basically nothing in the Saiyan saga, they're dead for all of the Freeza saga, they accomplish nothing in the Cell saga, and actually Tien does turn up in the Buu saga to fire one Kikoho.
You could drop Krillin from the story after the Freeza saga as well, really. Despite being the team leader on Namek he doesn't accomplish basically anything; he's even weaker than Gohan who similarly doesn't accomplish anything. I suppose if someone who wasn't attracted to Android 18 had the remote that short circuits the rest of the cell saga so.... good on you Krillin, your status as The Load makes you relevant.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Aren't you forgetting the part when Krillin and Gohan saved Dende from Dodoria?
No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!Batman is indeed nowhere near as good a combatant but he does have a huge amount of skills and resources that some of his more powerful teammates lack (for one, he's The Benefactor). Batman is able to have a role in the story and a decent one because Justice League story arcs aren't solely about fighting.
As for Hawkeye... eh. He's not The Load, so there's that.
Ah, you're correct, that did end up having quite a few unforseen benefits, didn't it.
edited 28th Nov '17 10:59:49 AM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
It did. Granted, Dende ended up getting killed anyway, but he happened to be revived right near Goku and Freeza, which let him come in and take Freeza's wish away from him. If he was killed right there in the village, none of that would have happened.
And as for Krillin during the Cell Saga, I don't know how fair it is to single him out as The Load, since there was plenty of blame to go around for what happened during that saga. Between Goku and Vegeta turning down Bulma's plan to kill Dr. Gero before he could awaken the androids, Piccolo leading Imperfect Cell right to the androids during his fight with #17, Vegeta purposely letting Cell absorb #18, Goku giving Cell a Senzu Bean, Gohan not finishing Cell off when he had the chance...
No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!Everyone fucks up in the Cell saga.
...Except for Tien and Yamcha...and kinda Trunks...no wait. He held back that he was stronger than Vegeta when he might have been able to kill Semi-Perfect Cell before then.
So yeah, every fucks up in the Cell saga but Tien and Yamcha...and Roshi...and Chi-chi...and Chiaoutzu...and Puar...and Oolong...and
<Ducks a brick>
One Strip! One Strip!Batman is a terrible example, because writers and fans alike exaggerate how competent he is and should be. So that's not gonna fly.
And the humans do still serve a purpose past the King Piccolo saga; they established how strong Nappa and Vegeta were by getting slaughtered after training, they were the main point of motivation in the Namek arc to be revived, and Krillin, Tien, and Yamcha all had little roles in the Android arc, even if small.
Just because they're not roles you want them to be in doesn't mean they served no purpose.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.I wouldn't throw much shade at Piccolo for accidentally leading Cell to the Androids mainly because his plan was to kill them before Cell could absorb them. It was a good plan, he simply underestimated their power.
As for Krillin, my main problem with his performance is less that he does something stupid and more that he doesn't do anything to offset that. Goku saves the Earth at the cost of his own life, Vegeta intervenes against Cell at the crucial moment, Gohan, well, Gohan destroys Cell down to the last cell. Everyone else mans up at the end to fix what they broke, but Krillin only got to join in on the "shooting stuff at Cell" gunline.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"16 didn't screw up in the Cell Saga. Heck it seemed like everyone else was conspiring against him.
This song needs more love.I forgot about 16...and lets be honest, so did Toriyama since the poor dude wasn't revived. Guess machines don't have souls.
I'll concede that point. I guess I just dislike that all the cool techniques they have were thrown out with them.
T'is a shame he couldn't have just destroyed 18 (who is arbitrarily weaker than 17). But 16 probably wouldn't have let that happen.
...there's not much else to really discuss in this is there? We should probably just stop.
....at least until I forget I said this and bring it up again.
One Strip! One Strip!

I mean, then that just means the issue is that they don't do other non-fighting related things with them, not that they can't. If they really want to use these characters, I'd imagine that's the better route to take than trying to force them into situations where they're useful fighters.
Super has a more slice of life feel anyway.