So basically the same old "#HUMANLIVESMATTER" that the vocal part of the Dragon Ball fandom keeps shouting.
I'm not trying to downplay your statement, but I've grown a little weary of people who clamour for humans to be relevant again, because it's always the same reasons given and it almost always ignores the established conventions of the series.
So yea, I used to be part of the faction that wanted lesser characters to do anything again, but between hearing the same complaints over and over and Super's (mis)handling of them, I don't care if they're ever relevant again tbh.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Yes, Goku is specifically the first (and as of now) only person to master it. It doesn't really make sense to build that up and then have everyone else who goes to King Kai or spend time with Goku be able to learn it.
One or two people maybe, but as it is, I'm fine with it. Partially for the reasons Saiga already outlined.
Wait is the fact that a form was really hard to get being used as an argument right now?
*Cough**cough*Super*cough**Saiyan*cough*
This song needs more love.I understand that their time was supposed to have come and gone, and I can get why others wish they could join the fight again (because lets be honest, almost all of them existed to be measuring sticks for Goku's latest increase in power).
But yeah, Super has rather half assed bringing them back, and I agree that maybe it's better if they stay out of things. There was a time for them to be able to join the fight, and that was pre-Frieza.
Simply put, if he wasn't around, the humans still being relevant (maybe even doing all the things some have brought up) might have been possible (even if they were still hopelessly behind Goku), but once he started showing his transforming face, it became very hopeless.
It doesn't help that they were written out in favour of characters that Toriyama then promptly gave up on (Gohan, Trunks and Goten) or never stood a chance of ever doing anything (poor Videl, who's only reason to exist seems to be ''being Gohan's girlfriend/wife and getting rekt by Spopovitch).
One Strip! One Strip!King Kai never gets into any real fights, and is outstripped by most of the cast in basically no time. He doesn't have the fighting cred compared to our heroes.
And as for the inventor of the technique needing to be the best, tell that to Master Roshi lol.
edited 27th Nov '17 4:46:37 PM by Moth13
That doesn't matter. Most of the characters aren't actually fighting prodigies, at least not nearly to the extent that Goku is. King Kai is fighter because he's making martial arts techniques, that we don't see him fighting opponents doesn't somehow mean the others have more "fight creed" than him, especially not when the arrive to meet him.
The humans stopped having any fighting cred past the Saiyan arc (and arguably before that as well) so that's still a terrible reason to say humans should just get Kaioken.
EDIT: In fact, King Kai even said that he's not much of a fighter. But he knew a variety of techniques that would be useful in a fight. IIRC, Goku was already stronger than him in terms of pure power when he first arrived on his planet.
edited 27th Nov '17 4:53:53 PM by BlackYakuzu94
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.So anyway, I decided on an interpretation of DB that makes the power scaling seem a bit less stupid and inconsistent to me. I don't think the characters are anywhere near as fast or strong as they logically must be and Toriyama just doesn't understand how much energy it takes to destroy something like a planet or how fast you have to be going to reach Jupiter in a few seconds.
Really, I have Hit to thank for this interpretation. A tenth of a second is enough to matter significantly in a normal fight. Hit doesn't need superspeed to take advantage of that, despite what the story said. If the characters were anything like as fast as the story treats them, an entire extended fight should practically be happening in that time. But it doesn't, so they can't actually be that fast.
Right, since our heroes actually have a bunch of fighting experience, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to pick up on those techniques better than King Kai.
As far as I'm aware, this isn't actually the case. Either way, it's not like Goku and co. were his first students. And seeing as how the Kaioken is shown to be genuinely hard for Goku to handle, I completely buy the likes of Yamcha, Krillin, Tien, and the rest not being able to get it at all. Because even putting power aside, Goku is just a lot better at these things than they are.
edited 27th Nov '17 5:19:42 PM by LSBK
So, to follow up my question from a while ago, should I add Wicked Cultured to Goku Black? (on the grounds that he's Zamasu in a Goku skin, and his Super Saiyan form is named for wine).
Point, let me reword it then, does he qualify for Wicked Cultured?, or is my reasoning for him being such not enough?
That seems reasonable, but I would whitetext the explanation as to why he counts (assuming that him being Zamasu is a whitetexted spoiler still)
Also, while I can understand Yamcha and Krillin, Tien is actually nearly as good in terms of technique as Goku. Heck, half the cast frequently use techniques he was shown with first (cough, Solar Flare). I have a hard time believing that Goku is just that much better technically.
But my main problem is that we see the humans making weirdly huge gains in power just by training. Nowhere near enough to actually be relevant, of course, but I'm pretty sure that some of them could have beaten Freeza back in the Freeza arc by now, and they seem to have arrived at that point just by doing pushups in the mountains (as opposed to unleashing the legendary hidden potential of a warrior race).
I can buy humans learning the Kaioken a lot easier than I can humans managing to make leaps that huge just by training with no other factors.
edited 27th Nov '17 8:10:41 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"It is well beyond mattering so I don't really care if anyone gets kaikoken or not, but saying anyone else using it devalues Goku's mastery is ridiculous. Super saiyan was supposed to be some rare legendary thing and not only has basically every fighter but Pan gotten it, they have gone beyond it (and even further beyond).
In the Freeza saga it was supposed to be a once in a thousand years type thing.
In the Cell saga it was handed to a lot of people *but* it still retained a lot of pathos (mainly because of how Future Trunks got it in History of Trunks and how kickass the SSJ 2 transformation is).
In the Buu saga... Goten and Trunks get it *while playing in the woods*. In addition, Gohan's SSJ 2, which was basically originally only possible because of his unique biology, basically became just the Next Tier Power-Up .
You can't deny that its importance kinda got eroded over time. Actually, the same happens to a lot of techniques in Dragonball. Remember when the Kikoho used to risk your life?
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"

No, but Kaioken is supposed to be super hard to learn. Like, apparently not even King Kai himself mastered it.