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Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#69751: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:35:51 PM

No, but Kaioken is supposed to be super hard to learn. Like, apparently not even King Kai himself mastered it.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69752: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:38:33 PM

So basically the same old "#HUMANLIVESMATTER" that the vocal part of the Dragon Ball fandom keeps shouting.

I'm not trying to downplay your statement, but I've grown a little weary of people who clamour for humans to be relevant again, because it's always the same reasons given and it almost always ignores the established conventions of the series.

So yea, I used to be part of the faction that wanted lesser characters to do anything again, but between hearing the same complaints over and over and Super's (mis)handling of them, I don't care if they're ever relevant again tbh.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#69753: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:39:18 PM

Yes, Goku is specifically the first (and as of now) only person to master it. It doesn't really make sense to build that up and then have everyone else who goes to King Kai or spend time with Goku be able to learn it.

One or two people maybe, but as it is, I'm fine with it. Partially for the reasons Saiga already outlined.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#69754: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:41:25 PM

No, but Kaioken is supposed to be super hard to learn. Like, apparently not even King Kai himself mastered it.

King Kai is a scrub though. I have no problems with our cast of established fighters learning it.

edited 27th Nov '17 4:41:32 PM by Moth13

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69755: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:43:05 PM

So the creator of the technique can't master it, but established characters who couldn't even do anything significant against the Saiyans could? That...doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#69756: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:43:06 PM

...King Kai is an established fighter and the inventor of the technique. That's really poor reasoning there.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#69757: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:43:24 PM

Wait is the fact that a form was really hard to get being used as an argument right now?

*Cough**cough*Super*cough**Saiyan*cough*

This song needs more love.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#69758: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:43:32 PM

I understand that their time was supposed to have come and gone, and I can get why others wish they could join the fight again (because lets be honest, almost all of them existed to be measuring sticks for Goku's latest increase in power).

But yeah, Super has rather half assed bringing them back, and I agree that maybe it's better if they stay out of things. There was a time for them to be able to join the fight, and that was pre-Frieza.

Simply put, if he wasn't around, the humans still being relevant (maybe even doing all the things some have brought up) might have been possible (even if they were still hopelessly behind Goku), but once he started showing his transforming face, it became very hopeless.

It doesn't help that they were written out in favour of characters that Toriyama then promptly gave up on (Gohan, Trunks and Goten) or never stood a chance of ever doing anything (poor Videl, who's only reason to exist seems to be ''being Gohan's girlfriend/wife and getting rekt by Spopovitch).

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#69759: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:43:45 PM

At this point it wouldn't terribly matter if any of the humans learned Kaioken, so I never raised any objections to it.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#69760: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:46:30 PM

...King Kai is an established fighter and the inventor of the technique. That's really poor reasoning there.

King Kai never gets into any real fights, and is outstripped by most of the cast in basically no time. He doesn't have the fighting cred compared to our heroes.

And as for the inventor of the technique needing to be the best, tell that to Master Roshi lol.

edited 27th Nov '17 4:46:37 PM by Moth13

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#69761: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:52:04 PM

That doesn't matter. Most of the characters aren't actually fighting prodigies, at least not nearly to the extent that Goku is. King Kai is fighter because he's making martial arts techniques, that we don't see him fighting opponents doesn't somehow mean the others have more "fight creed" than him, especially not when the arrive to meet him.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69762: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:52:34 PM

The humans stopped having any fighting cred past the Saiyan arc (and arguably before that as well) so that's still a terrible reason to say humans should just get Kaioken.

EDIT: In fact, King Kai even said that he's not much of a fighter. But he knew a variety of techniques that would be useful in a fight. IIRC, Goku was already stronger than him in terms of pure power when he first arrived on his planet.

edited 27th Nov '17 4:53:53 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#69763: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:52:58 PM

So anyway, I decided on an interpretation of DB that makes the power scaling seem a bit less stupid and inconsistent to me. I don't think the characters are anywhere near as fast or strong as they logically must be and Toriyama just doesn't understand how much energy it takes to destroy something like a planet or how fast you have to be going to reach Jupiter in a few seconds.

Really, I have Hit to thank for this interpretation. A tenth of a second is enough to matter significantly in a normal fight. Hit doesn't need superspeed to take advantage of that, despite what the story said. If the characters were anything like as fast as the story treats them, an entire extended fight should practically be happening in that time. But it doesn't, so they can't actually be that fast.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69764: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:55:45 PM

Writers can't math basically.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#69765: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:57:59 PM

In fact, King Kai even said that he's not much of a fighter. But he knew a variety of techniques that would be useful in a fight. IIRC, Goku was already stronger than him in terms of pure power when he first arrived on his planet.

Right, since our heroes actually have a bunch of fighting experience, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to pick up on those techniques better than King Kai.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#69766: Nov 27th 2017 at 5:17:43 PM

IIRC, Goku was already stronger than him in terms of pure power when he first arrived on his planet.

As far as I'm aware, this isn't actually the case. Either way, it's not like Goku and co. were his first students. And seeing as how the Kaioken is shown to be genuinely hard for Goku to handle, I completely buy the likes of Yamcha, Krillin, Tien, and the rest not being able to get it at all. Because even putting power aside, Goku is just a lot better at these things than they are.

edited 27th Nov '17 5:19:42 PM by LSBK

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#69767: Nov 27th 2017 at 5:23:01 PM

It's easy to forget, but it goes Goku pre-training < Raditz < King Yemma < King Kai.

Kytseo Since: Jul, 2010
#69768: Nov 27th 2017 at 6:04:51 PM

So, to follow up my question from a while ago, should I add Wicked Cultured to Goku Black? (on the grounds that he's Zamasu in a Goku skin, and his Super Saiyan form is named for wine).

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Kytseo Since: Jul, 2010
#69770: Nov 27th 2017 at 6:37:49 PM

[up]

Point, let me reword it then, does he qualify for Wicked Cultured?, or is my reasoning for him being such not enough?

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#69771: Nov 27th 2017 at 8:01:40 PM

That seems reasonable, but I would whitetext the explanation as to why he counts (assuming that him being Zamasu is a whitetexted spoiler still)

Also, while I can understand Yamcha and Krillin, Tien is actually nearly as good in terms of technique as Goku. Heck, half the cast frequently use techniques he was shown with first (cough, Solar Flare). I have a hard time believing that Goku is just that much better technically.

But my main problem is that we see the humans making weirdly huge gains in power just by training. Nowhere near enough to actually be relevant, of course, but I'm pretty sure that some of them could have beaten Freeza back in the Freeza arc by now, and they seem to have arrived at that point just by doing pushups in the mountains (as opposed to unleashing the legendary hidden potential of a warrior race).

I can buy humans learning the Kaioken a lot easier than I can humans managing to make leaps that huge just by training with no other factors.

edited 27th Nov '17 8:10:41 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Jedi1113 Since: Jun, 2009
#69772: Nov 27th 2017 at 8:14:11 PM

It is well beyond mattering so I don't really care if anyone gets kaikoken or not, but saying anyone else using it devalues Goku's mastery is ridiculous. Super saiyan was supposed to be some rare legendary thing and not only has basically every fighter but Pan gotten it, they have gone beyond it (and even further beyond).

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#69773: Nov 27th 2017 at 8:17:35 PM

Not every fighter, every Saiyan, and all of the Saiyans who have done so have been way better than any other Saiyan could have dreamed of being.

I still don't get why people think going "But Super Saiyan!" should mean anything.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#69774: Nov 27th 2017 at 8:23:49 PM

In the Freeza saga it was supposed to be a once in a thousand years type thing.

In the Cell saga it was handed to a lot of people *but* it still retained a lot of pathos (mainly because of how Future Trunks got it in History of Trunks and how kickass the SSJ 2 transformation is).

In the Buu saga... Goten and Trunks get it *while playing in the woods*. In addition, Gohan's SSJ 2, which was basically originally only possible because of his unique biology, basically became just the Next Tier Power-Up .

You can't deny that its importance kinda got eroded over time. Actually, the same happens to a lot of techniques in Dragonball. Remember when the Kikoho used to risk your life?

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#69775: Nov 27th 2017 at 8:25:11 PM

Goku is usually the strongest in his group as he seems to get the new powers before everyone else.

"Mai waifu."

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