When people say 'whine', it makes me think of a childish and high-pitched immature complaining. Goku wasn't 'whining'. He just stated outright in a calm voice that he didn't like that he had to take energy from others just to reach that level of power.
edited 27th Nov '17 8:11:31 AM by PushoverMediaCritic
Fair enough.
Something just occurred to me. Wasn't there a point in the Cell Saga when Goku and Gohan were just moving so fast that nobody could see them? I'm basing this off the TFS version, but still, there comes a point when they were so fast most of the humans couldn't keep up.
So, how is it Tien and Roshi are even following what's going on in the TOP? I bring them up because when Goku deflects Toppo and Dyspo, they're the first two to bring up how Goku's movements have changed and his reaction speed is different.
But, powerscaling: Cell Saga Goku was invisible < Buu Saga Goku << Super Saiyan God Goku <<<<<< Ultra Instinct Goku.
Goku is at least 3-4 tiers above where he was before.
I can tolerate the other Saiyans/Nameks maybe keeping up but... it doesn't seem like anyone has trouble seeing the stronger fighters anymore.
Hell, Hit's whole thing is being hard to read and Jiren just nutshots him the moment he uses Time-Skip. Then there was Jimeze, Freeza slapped him with his tail when Jimeze tried using Instant Transmission.
What, instant teleportation and stopping time just aren't enough to get the drop on people these days? Well that I guess that can't be totally true because Goku punked Caulifa with the Afterimage Technique.
No but seriously, I've been watching the tournament in bits and piece, but Dypso seems to be the only one who's had any significant advantage in speed.
edited 27th Nov '17 12:34:34 PM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!About the whole invisible thing, in one of the Tenkaichi Budokais from the OG Dragonball, Roshi and Krillin had a fight that was invisible to everyone present and after the fight they have to stop and describe what happened to the audience, so the whole "should be too fast to track for the audience" started *waaaaay* earlier than the Cell Arc.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"I don't think the ability to track someone's movement is based on power level - at least, not solely based on it. IIRC, in the Saiyan Arc Gohan was having trouble keeping up with the fight between Yamcha and the Saibaman, even though I'm pretty sure he was stronger than either of them by that point.
I think it's less about power and more about training, experience and the general ability to sense energy.
edited 27th Nov '17 1:04:47 PM by TyeDyeWildebeest
No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!Gohan is also unable to keep up with the speed of Yamcha and the Saibaman's battle, which Piccolo scolds him over and tells him to sense their ki to keep up, and that everyone else can and are doing it (which actually raises questions about the ability for anyone in the Freeza Forces, including Freeza himself, to be able to see what they're doing).
Here's
◊ a chart that should help you out. At the bottom of each fighter's picture is the number of eliminations they have.
edited 27th Nov '17 1:17:55 PM by TyeDyeWildebeest
No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!Is anyone else sometimes a bit annoyed no one else ever got Kaioken? Goku's had it for ages but it seems like something a lot of the cast could make pretty great use of (especially the humans).
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Unfortunately, they were never on King Kai's planet long enough to learn Kaioken.
More to the point, all enemies were more powerful than Frieza, who easily crushed Goku at times 20 Kaioken (which is the highest he could go without destroying his body).
So Kaioken was rendered totally useless, and even if they did learn it, their bodies probably wouldn't be able to handle the levels needed to make them relevant.
One Strip! One Strip!The humans would still be irrelevant, and Piccolo would just have his own power toned down to compensate.
Kaio-ken is a bad idea because it raises the question of why doesn't everyone use it and if they did, it's the same as no-one having it except they're all covered in the same red lighting & aura so you really homogenize their looks and power-set.
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That's probably the reason why Toriyama abandoned it via raising the level of power. Super Saiyan made it redundant, and the power of later enemies made it useless even if the humans COULD learn it.
One Strip! One Strip!Or there's the fact that the Kaio-ken is very dangerous and can easily damage the user's body. Goku's first major use of it nearly killed him (granted, he did quadruple it after King Kai told him "Don't even think about more than doubling it!"), and he's a Saiyan with superior resilience to a human being.
Tien is the only human I can think of that might possibly be willing to use it, given that (he's shown no aversion to life-threatening techniques before, eg "Shin Kikoho").
I think Piccolo pulling out the Kaioken against Frieza would have been cool. Third form has him on the ropes and then WHAM! Plus we'd have a reason for Frieza going final form besides "meh, might as well".
See that would have been great, but it would have required Piccolo to actually learn something from King Kai, which he didn't seem interested in doing (since he refused to do the tests).
Plus, they apparently weren't there long enough to actually learn it.
One Strip! One Strip!Remember, Goku wasn't just on King Kai's planet to learn the Kaioken but also the Spirit bomb (\o/), so I think in terms of timeframe it would be doable.
Yes, it takes a toll on a body, but I think it would be a way for the human fighters to at least try to remain relevant in the face of mounting numbers of Saiyans.
Though I guess it still doesn't change the problem that powersets in dragonball tend to be very similar amoung people and it all boils down to the strongest fighter.
Still, a man can dream.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"

That's fair enough. Goku isn't as openly prideful as Vegeta is.
Even when they crushed the earrings, he only did so after Vegeta crushing his own earring made having the other irrelevant.
One Strip! One Strip!