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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#69701: Nov 27th 2017 at 12:05:16 AM

One fights like an ape, one fights like a swordsman, one doesn't keep his cool, one does, one has majin eyes, one doesn't.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#69702: Nov 27th 2017 at 12:06:40 AM

[up][up][up][up]Why would the difference between Goku and Vegetto be any different?

Yeah, the anime is better than the manga. Trunks getting a super anime power-up of awesome and cutting Zamasu in half is way cooler than him getting healing powers and playing support. Anime Black is also way better than manga Black, as is Zamasu.

edited 27th Nov '17 12:10:20 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#69703: Nov 27th 2017 at 12:10:34 AM

[up][up] He never fights like an ape lol

He may not have stupidly gratiutous flourishes but that's it. Both have calm and not-calm moments.

[up] Because the versions are clearly different? That should be obvious. When one introduces a huge power-up the other doesn't have, it's quite a jump to assume it changes nothing.

And yeah, Trunks' power-up was garbage. Not sure I like the way he got his healing but the support role is 100% what he should be to avoid going into Android arc 'fix fic' territory.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#69704: Nov 27th 2017 at 12:11:49 AM

[up]The manga introduced Mastered Blue, which is an equivalent to Kaioken, just introduced an arc later.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#69705: Nov 27th 2017 at 12:13:32 AM

[up][up] Heheh I was going for exaggeration there. Though its nice I got a laugh outta you. tongue

I don't know I just like those grand flourishes. I think it adds some personality to him.

Though I'm only defending the anime's portrayal of Black. The Spirit Sword & especially Future Trunks' transformation business is shit I'm not gonna try defending.

edited 27th Nov '17 12:14:56 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#69706: Nov 27th 2017 at 12:14:19 AM

And also doesn't have multiple stages of power, or a confirmed multiplier that necessitates a certain gap, nor does it seem to be as large a power gap (looking at God and Blue vs Toppo).

It also got introduced at a much better point than Blue Kaio-ken, and allowed 'base' Blue to be relevant longer and overall made Blue more relevant.

edited 27th Nov '17 12:15:42 AM by Saiga

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#69707: Nov 27th 2017 at 2:22:59 AM

What's the problem with that?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#69708: Nov 27th 2017 at 2:30:07 AM

The anime still having Vegeta as just behind Goku, despite kaioken having Goku as several times stronger.

Vegeta mastered Blue the arc after Goku did so, AND showed how that is not enough to get on Beerus' level. Kaioken Blue was both enough to scare Beerus on its debut, then be utterly useless in any subsequent appareance.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#69709: Nov 27th 2017 at 2:43:27 AM

I thought Beerus was more surprised than scared.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#69710: Nov 27th 2017 at 3:02:25 AM

Yeah, he asked why Goku didn't use it against him in their fight. When Whis asked him if he thinks it would've been enough to beat him, Beerus said of course not, but still thought it might have been useful.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69711: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:38:29 AM

I do think Black doesn't come off as powerful in the manga, and therefore the tension of the arc gets deflated a bit.

Sure, you can argue he wasn't supposed to be that powerful to begin with, but it's hard to take a villain seriously when you know the main characters are already more powerful. See ROT.

Since we brought it up, how much more powerful is Mastered SSB supposed to be than Kaioken anyway? Goku goes from losing to Merged Zamasu to being on par, but Vegeta using it is still weaker than Beerus.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#69712: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:50:53 AM

ROT...

ROF?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#69713: Nov 27th 2017 at 5:36:58 AM

In Toriyama's draft, Goku and Vegeta working in tandem would take out Merged Zamasu.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#69714: Nov 27th 2017 at 5:41:38 AM

...

  • In Toriyama's version he'd probably have them do that?
  • Or, there's proof that in Toriyama's original version/notes, they were supposed to do that?

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#69715: Nov 27th 2017 at 5:43:28 AM

[up][up][up][up]Merged Zamasu is weaker in the manga than he is in the anime. Manga Zamasu is curbstomped by Blue Vegetto while anime Zamasu is just at a negligible disadvantage. Personally, I'd say that Mastered Blue is about even with Blue Kaiokenx10 since tired Blue in the manga is 10% as strong as fresh Blue.

Mastered/fresh manga Blue = Kaiokenx10 anime Blue

God to Blue manga switching trick = Kaiokenx5 anime Blue

Tired manga Blue = anime Blue

Or something like that.

[up]Vegetto straight-up wasn't in the original draft. He was a suggestion from Toyotaro.

edited 27th Nov '17 5:47:05 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#69716: Nov 27th 2017 at 5:43:48 AM

Merged Zamasu was originally supposed to be a lot weaker, but when Toriyama decided to bring back Vegetto, Zamasu power was boosted accordingly.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#69717: Nov 27th 2017 at 5:50:56 AM

[up]Vegetto straight-up wasn't in the original draft. He was a suggestion from Toyotaro.

So, like, we have a source on this?

Because Dragonball fans have been doing the "Toriyama said this, therefore it's canon and my argument has validation" shtick on Youtube and other message boards for decades now, and it's getting old.

If it's actually true then I think I like Toyotaro 50 percent more now. I might not have to assassinate him and take control of the Dragonball Super manga now if that's his thought process.

Merged Zamasu was originally supposed to be a lot weaker, but when Toriyama decided to bring back Vegetto, Zamasu power was boosted accordingly

See, conflicting messages here. "Toyotaro came up with Vegetto, Toriyama decided to bring back Vegetto."

edited 27th Nov '17 6:27:25 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#69718: Nov 27th 2017 at 5:53:22 AM

Toyotaro was the one who convinced Toriyama to bring Vegetto back, I think?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#69719: Nov 27th 2017 at 5:59:29 AM

It's in an interview with the two in the back pages of the most recent Super volume. They talk about the process of creating it and some things are revealed such as:

  • Goku Black was inspired by other Evil Doppelgänger characters, which Toriyama has always wanted to do.

  • Toyotaro suggested adding Vegetto, Trunks' healing, and Vegeta going Super Saiyan God. Vegetto was because he felt it was the fan expected thing to do. Vegeta going God had careful oversight by Akira.

  • Toriyama thinks that Toyotaro tried to copy his Dragon Ball too much in the past but he's starting to come into his own, and he encourages him to draw action scenes rougher to give them more punch.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#69720: Nov 27th 2017 at 5:59:33 AM

Taking both options and merging them so neither is wholly invalid, Shlugo, I swear I will SLAP YOUR SH'T-

Whatever the case, bringing back Vegetto is considerably more entertaining than not bringing back Vegetto]], and I have to give that decision my no-name Western Dragonball fan seal of approval. Good show, Toyotaro, good show.

edited 27th Nov '17 6:27:46 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#69721: Nov 27th 2017 at 6:05:12 AM

Toyotaro suggested adding Vegetto, Trunks' healing, and Vegeta going Super Saiyan God. Vegetto was because he felt it was the fan expected thing to do. Vegeta going God had careful oversight by Akira.

Toriyama thinks that Toyotaro tried to copy his Dragon Ball too much in the past but he's starting to come into his own, and he encourages him to draw action scenes rougher to give them more punch.

I faintly remember this from one of the perfectly legal scans I was reading. -_-

edited 27th Nov '17 6:28:04 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#69722: Nov 27th 2017 at 6:12:49 AM

Yeah. I recall us posting that interview of it.

Though it does make me wonder if the exact ending of the Trunks arc was always inevitable. I won't go into details since Arha is still watching and all.

Still, it seems that Toriyama had planned for the Goku and Vegeta could win if they worked together lesson from Resurrection F to come together here, and it kinda still works with Vegetto (as there's no greater for of working together than literally sharing a body).

Of course, that ending...

One Strip! One Strip!
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#69723: Nov 27th 2017 at 6:21:35 AM

It works better with Vegetto than if they'd merely worked together. Fighting alongside Goku isn't that hard for Vegeta, but fusing with him is something he wasn't about to do without some provocation, and even then. Fusion goes against both of their natures.

edited 27th Nov '17 6:59:10 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#69724: Nov 27th 2017 at 6:52:22 AM

[up]

I don't know. Goku always seems a lot more willing to fuse than Vegeta. He's almost always the one pushing for it, both in cannon, and in non cannon examples.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#69725: Nov 27th 2017 at 6:53:44 AM

He still doesn't like doing it. He's just more willing to do so than Vegeta is.


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