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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#69551: Nov 25th 2017 at 11:59:51 PM

Bulma was a fucking whiner during those fights.

She called out everything outta the ordinary as cheating.

Not their fault her hubbie got the boring powers.

edited 26th Nov '17 12:00:06 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#69552: Nov 26th 2017 at 12:00:38 AM

The difference with Goku sandbagging is that he at least didn't struggle against his opponents while holding back.

With Super style 'holding back' they get their ass kicked without it making sense that they dobt just use a little more power to prevent the ass kicking

Kytseo Since: Jul, 2010
#69553: Nov 26th 2017 at 12:01:54 AM

[up][up][up][up][up][up]

After this heated debate (pun intended) about the Vegeta Vs. Magetta fight concludes, please give your thoughts on my question.

edited 26th Nov '17 12:02:16 AM by Kytseo

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#69554: Nov 26th 2017 at 12:06:09 AM

Goku Black should definitely count as Wicked Cultured.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#69555: Nov 26th 2017 at 12:08:07 AM

[up][up][up]They're really underestimating their foes...

At least back then Karrot knew how strong he was in comparison to Kriller and Ten.

edited 26th Nov '17 12:08:49 AM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Kytseo Since: Jul, 2010
#69556: Nov 26th 2017 at 12:08:43 AM

[up][up]

Well, it was added before, but the person who removed it claimed it wasn't explicitly shown (even though it seemed that naming a Super Mode after wine made things explicit enough, on top of the implications the "Zamasu in a Goku skin" aspect give).

edited 26th Nov '17 12:09:33 AM by Kytseo

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#69557: Nov 26th 2017 at 12:53:55 AM

Also, why is heat or lava even a threat to Vegeta?

Because being a planet-buster+ has absolutely nothing to do with durability...

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#69558: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:02:05 AM

Yes it does? Characters who are planet busters can take hits from other planet busters.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#69559: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:08:33 AM

That's where DB logic fails...

All characters should be able to swim in lava no problem at this point...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#69560: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:10:11 AM

Yeah, that's the thing. He only manages to be a threat because of stupid forced gimmicks

What's forced about it, and on what level is it worse than any gimmick in the original series?

Plus destroying the barrier should be a rule violation and, if not, it should be instantly replaced

Dragonball is largely comedic, several tournaments have had rule violations (Goku using his tail), and this tournament is run by two genocidal cat-gods who only want to see the other one's team lose.

Also, what's with it being weak enough to destroy? The whole justification for it was to keep the audience safe, yet it can't even stand up to Vegeta yelling?

Drama. I can't remember how this part went so I'm assuming it was for dramatic purposes.

Also, why is heat or lava even a threat to Vegeta? And how can Magetta take that kind of pummeling? Vegeta is a planet buster times at least a million.

Since when was lava not a threat to Vegeta?

The arc would lose meaning if Magetta wasn't any sort of threat to Vegeta.

Doesn't stop him from being bossed around by Bulma or having kids with her. The fun of alternate universe fighters is the assumption that they have unique gimmicks which make them credible threats, or at least ensure that the heroes can't sandbag and cherry-tap their way to victory.

Oh yeah, and the fact that Vegeta is only using SS rather than at least SS 2 also really undermines the threat level Magetta poses.

But SS 2 would still be sandbagging.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#69561: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:12:26 AM

[up][up][up] No. That's not how it works at all. Durability is separate from destructive capability.There are characters that can blow up a planet and still die to things like bullets and knives.

We don't even know if Goku and Vegeta could survive a supernova, despite the fact that they can definitely bust stars at this point...

It depends on the characters/series being discussed really.

edited 26th Nov '17 1:13:20 AM by hardcorefakes

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#69562: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:16:12 AM

Durability towards beams constantly being thrown at them...

Now, argument: None of the primary characters have ever been completely overwhelmed by energy attacks...so we don't know what their defense is.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#69563: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:22:53 AM

What's forced about it, and on what level is it worse than any gimmick in the original series?

Because it's artificially creating an environment for no other reason than to even the playing field with someone who is not a threat to Vegeta by making him deal with factors that still shouldn't be dangerous to him apart from the decreasing oxygen.

Dragonball is largely comedic, several tournaments have had rule violations (Goku using his tail), and this tournament is run by two genocidal cat-gods who only want to see the other one's team lose.

It wasn't played for laughs, so using the comedy excuse doesn't work.

Drama. I can't remember how this part went so I'm assuming it was for dramatic purposes.

This doesn't answer my question. Why did Champa allow the barrier to be made weak enough to be destroyed by anyone who put any effort into doing so?

Since when was lava not a threat to Vegeta?

Since he started busting planets and crashing through mountains without significant damage.

The arc would lose meaning if Magetta wasn't any sort of threat to Vegeta.

Exactly. He wasn't any threat, so the fight was meaningless.

Doesn't stop him from being bossed around by Bulma or having kids with her. The fun of alternate universe fighters is the assumption that they have unique gimmicks which make them credible threats, or at least ensure that the heroes can't sandbag and cherry-tap their way to victory.

But he was sandbagging the entire fight? And I don't know what you mean by cherry tapping since that's a term with no relevance to this fight, but since he won by ringout instead of just being strong enough to break iron like Goku could at age twelve, that sounds like as close to cherry tapping as you can get.

But SS 2 would still be sandbagging.

That's my point! Not only was he not going all out, he wasn't going anywhere close to all out. He still had multiple transformations between the level he was fighting at and his actual maximum.

[up][up][up] No. That's not how it works at all. Durability is separate from destructive capability.There are characters that can blow up a planet and still die to things like bullets and knives.

Yeah, and it's stupid in those series too. Like Yu Yu Hakusho where a knife is suddenly a serious threat to Yusuke despite him being punched by a dude who can casually level a massive stadium and shrugging it off. But it doesn't work like that in Dragonball, or at least didn't until this point. We see people getting punched so hard they fly through entire mountains and leave them as rubble. And it's not like Freeza would hold back in a fight even if you think Vegeta or Goku would need to do so in case their attacks missed. So yeah, they take planet busting attacks to the face and take no damage from it.

Edit: Ugh, if you quoteblock my post again I'm not going to do the same, I'm just going to respond normally. My post looks like shit with the way it's all chopped up.

edited 26th Nov '17 1:23:30 AM by Arha

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#69564: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:32:08 AM

Durability not equaling DC works in other works in my opinion because there is no correlation between the two. It's a completely separate aspect of a character.

And anyways, Goku and Vegeta can tank planet-busting attacks, yes, but that doesn't mean we can wank them higher than that. We need feats, you see.

And being thrown through mountains says nothing about the upper tier of what they can tank....actually, being thrown through a mountain isn't any worse than being dipped in lava. Pretty sure taking a bath in lava is worse, actually. Depends on the amount of force which sent you through the mountain I guess, but then the mountain doesn't really matter there...

edited 26th Nov '17 1:35:33 AM by hardcorefakes

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#69565: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:34:02 AM

...So lava is more damaging than planet busting?

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#69566: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:36:48 AM

[up] His lava is.

Let it be stated that Goku needed a special suit to travel to the Earth's core so yes lava can damage him.

So there not fucking invulnerable.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#69567: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:36:53 AM

More damaging than the pure energy of the attack that causes the planet busting.

As the show would have you believe.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#69568: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:37:20 AM

[up][up][up]

No..? But...I never said it was.....?

edited 26th Nov '17 1:37:37 AM by hardcorefakes

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#69569: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:37:38 AM

That's stupid.

^ Then why are you defending lava being a threat to Vegeta?

Oh whatever, just going to watch Hit beat up Vegeta then go to sleep.

edited 26th Nov '17 1:38:26 AM by Arha

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#69570: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:38:30 AM

Besides its a ring-out battle.

You don't have to overwhelm your opponent in strength just be better or throw them out. Thats what Goku did against Botamo.

Its lava made by a super-powered organic robot. I assume its as strong sorta as a planet buster attack by a strong being. Thats the key here.

edited 26th Nov '17 1:39:51 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#69571: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:39:28 AM

@ slimcoder: I think it's less the lava and more the millions of atomspheric pressures that'd be pushing on him. Or the fact that he'd be breathing molten rock

I'd thank God that Ribrianne was eliminated, but since the closest thing to God in Dragonball is Zen'o...never mind

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#69572: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:40:56 AM

All characters should be able to swim in lava no problem at this point...

The only time I think they've even come close was Goku and Freeza fighting on Namek ("my butt if flaming!"), and I think that was only in the anime - which would mean Toei is probably looking back at that moment - but even then Goku was seen reacting with pain when he touched the surface of the lava. I don't know why we should assume "5-10 hundred thousand million units later, Goku would automatically be immune to lava." Freeza is the only person with explicit natural resistances - Saiyans still need air, still need to eat, still need their limbs and certain organs.

If they raise their ki or lift a barrier then yeah they can probably swim through just fine. Besides, Super's new logic seems to be "anything can pierce anyone's skin no matter how strong they are if they don't have their guard up." Like it or not that's the logic they're going with.

Why did Champa allow the barrier to be made weak enough to be destroyed by anyone who put any effort into doing so?

Why did Kami create Dragon Balls that are linked to his life force? Why didn't the Namekians remove this limitation after seeing how hazardous it could be? Why have reality-altering spheres on two different planets? Why didn't Goku teach anyone else Instant Transmission? Why did Beerus wait to find the Super Saiyan God if he knew about the Super Dragon Balls?

If we criticized everything that didn't make the utmost sense in this franchise, we'd be here all day.

Because it's artificially creating an environment for no other reason than to even the playing field with someone who is not a threat to Vegeta by making him deal with factors that still shouldn't be dangerous to him apart from the decreasing oxygen.

An opponent having a gimmick that gives them a chance against far more powerful characters is a problem? Then the only acceptable course is to write opponents that are consistently of equal and or greater strength to the main characters?

We could make the same argument for a lot of battles in this series where an enemy is stalled or the heroes are thwarted because of Reason X Y and Z, but nevertheless, I don't actually see a problem with evening the playing field here.

Since he started busting planets and crashing through mountains without significant damage.

Vegeta hasn't actually busted a planet while standing directly on it in the manga, that I know of, unless he and Nappa landed on that bug planet like they did in the anime. Even if they did, there's a fair chance he was some distance from it given that the main characters still need to breath and none of them are ever shown surviving the explosion of a planet. In fact, though we might discount it, Vegeta was killed when Freeza blew up the Earth.

Crashing through a mountain has little to do with heat. By that logic, the Z-Fighters would never sweat just because their skin is tough. Crashing through the earth's crust would be a different matter, but the only time these characters have ever been shown resisting that level of heat for a sustained period of time was in the anime and in the second Broly film.

This arc would be extremely boring if every fight was a joke with no potential risk or failure, and it wouldn't be cathartic or entertaining if every single fight was life and death with Goku and Vegeta facing an opponent of equal power. Eventually you'd fall into the trap of "well Goku and Vegeta consecutively fight these opponents who almost kill them but never do, so why should I care?"

Yes, Vegeta is sandbagging recklessly, but Vegeta is also biting off more than he can chew, and it's also not out-of-character for him to do so. Yes, he could just go Blue and end it, but that would be less entertaining and would be out-of-character for him when he's reasonably sure he can win.

The solution to what you consider meaningless fights because one character has a contrived advantage is to have every character from this point on be just as strong as Vegeta. But that doesn't make for great writing or interesting fights. That just pushes the Serial Escalation higher than it needs to be.

That's my point! Not only was he not going all out, he wasn't going anywhere close to all out. He still had multiple transformations between the level he was fighting at and his actual maximum.

Freeza. Vegeta. Goku. Cell. Almost every important fight has involved some form of sandbagging. It's a necessary evil of the genre.

edited 26th Nov '17 5:35:58 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#69573: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:42:06 AM

[up][up][up][up] I mean, the writing is stupid....

But, I guess this is a question of how hot their attacks get when they're blowing planets up? Yeah, something that blows up an entire planet should definitely be much hotter than lava. Although, that doesn't take away from my original point.

Just means Toriyama/the writers don't think about the physics too much.

[up]

Yeah the mountain is irrelevant. It's more about what sent them through the mountain really.

edited 26th Nov '17 1:43:57 AM by hardcorefakes

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69574: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:42:31 AM

If Vegeta could unlock Ultra Instinct by being punched in the face, he'd probably have mastered it five times over by now.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#69575: Nov 26th 2017 at 1:45:01 AM

What if Cell or Buu could generate their own lava or fire?

Wouldn't that be able to damage them since its created from their own power with Ki not from the environment?

Besides Magetta had a good strategy given to him by Champa. Slowly exhausting Veggie. Sure the situation is artificial but thats the point cause Champa is constantly tipping the scales in his favor to win this tournament. It makes sense honestly.

edited 26th Nov '17 1:46:11 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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