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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#69301: Nov 23rd 2017 at 10:06:24 PM

I mean, probably. Even in Super we have that thing where Goku can't form the Spirit Bomb as a Super Saiyan because he's "tainted" or whatever. Which I guess is just confirmation of what was assumed anyway.

edited 23rd Nov '17 10:06:47 PM by LSBK

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#69302: Nov 23rd 2017 at 10:07:43 PM

If it's that easy, I find it incredibly unlikely for combat geniuses Goku and Vegeta not to notice it when trying to teach others.

Even if they thought anger was necessary, it would still be helpful to point out a detail like that.

Goku already explained what it feels like, and he conveniently left out what is apparently the main feeling.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#69303: Nov 23rd 2017 at 10:08:44 PM

Retcons man, what can I say. (Shrugs)

It really goes to show ya how sloppily done the Saiyan girls introductions are.

edited 23rd Nov '17 10:11:33 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#69304: Nov 23rd 2017 at 10:26:49 PM

Which is a damned shame, because the introduction of the first ever female Super Saiyans should be a huge cause for celebration, but it's been so botched.

I suppose we could have avoided this if Toriyama hadn't been so uninterested in having any female Saiyans before Pan.

One Strip! One Strip!
Envyus Since: Jun, 2011
#69305: Nov 23rd 2017 at 10:31:19 PM

Not really I think they were intorduced fine.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#69306: Nov 23rd 2017 at 10:35:00 PM

Eh the whole thing could have been better thought out.

Such as giving them more than 2 days to prepare but its already too late for that.

edited 23rd Nov '17 10:36:52 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#69307: Nov 24th 2017 at 4:48:23 AM

So everyone else's problem with the back method aside, what was wrong with "2 days to prepare?"

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#69308: Nov 24th 2017 at 5:38:36 AM

I'm guessing the thought is that it was unnecessary drama of "we've got to find the ten best candidates in forty hours"(which is less than two days). I mean, Zeno is basing the tournament on 1)his entertainment, 2)his belief that the universes in question don't have high enough mortal levels.

Belief being the key word here, as he was surprised such low ranking universes had such strong fighters. Why wouldn't he want to give everyone ample time to show him a really good show? Though there may in fact be answers to those questions I'm guessing everyone further along than myself haven't gotten them yet.

Kind of like limiting universe 7 to four fighters and then making one of them nigh useless, then teasing Goku premature elimination, then actually having Piccolo prematurely eliminated, just to really make people think universe 6 might win. We did get fugitive Frost out of all that, so it wasn't a total waste, just like we got scheming Frieza later, but did the stakes have to be that unfavorable to get there? No, not really. A little more leniency would have allowed for other interesting outcomes like, say, another "strong" fighter in universe 7 not hanging around Earth or the universe six saiyans taking as long as Gohan to unlock their super modes, relative to the time someone was teaching them to.

An alternate solution, just have someone in universe six learn super saiyan during the Goku Black-Zamasu incident, the baseball game, Gohan's movie, Krillen's retraining and the Zen exhibition. But for whatever reason the universe six representatives had to be someone outside of Cabba's social circle, I guess so that they could be potentially stronger than him, the elite of the guard, but not notable enough for Vados to have chosen in the first place...I could be wrong, but I get the impression that even with animation lead time someone is still last minute writing(edit:no, I'm not assuming it's Toriyama again).

edited 24th Nov '17 10:06:16 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

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GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#69309: Nov 24th 2017 at 8:05:24 AM

Also, we don't know how involved Toriyama is with the writing of Super and how much of the writing is purely Toriyama or Toei's. Toriyama only wrote the notes of what ideas and what direction to take the series but Toei interpreted those notes in very interesting ways

"Mai waifu."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#69310: Nov 24th 2017 at 8:11:25 AM

We can make assumptions based off what makes it into both the Super Manga and the Super Anime.

Things like Buu gets eliminated before he gets a chance to fight in the 6 vs 7 tournament obviously were in the notes, but how it happens seems to vary, meaning that Toriyama didn't specify the exact details and allowed both Toei and Toyotaro to come up with their own ideas.

One Strip! One Strip!
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#69311: Nov 24th 2017 at 8:16:42 AM

And, as of the current arc, Toyotaro is having more imput in the final product.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#69312: Nov 24th 2017 at 8:32:35 AM

Heh. I get the feeling that due to that, the Manga is gonna be considered the true version.

I wish they'd just focused on one first so that both could be more consistent.

One Strip! One Strip!
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#69313: Nov 24th 2017 at 8:36:15 AM

[up] Eh, I kind of like it. Considering Super already wasted time by redoing Battle of Gods and ROF, Super is consistently audacious if nothing else.

Why wouldn't he want to give everyone ample time to show him a really good show?

Because he's a child. He has no concept of patience. Zeno threatens to erase you from existence for voicing an opinions. Two days was more than enough time - we only saw the Trio de Dangers and Goku struggling to get people rallied after all - when all of Zeno's servants have the ability to teleport anywhere in the known universe.

Zeno wants his gladiatorial death-matches and he wants them now. He doesn't need to give them ample time.

A little more leniency would have allowed for other interesting outcomes like, say, another "strong" fighter in universe 7 not hanging around Earth or the universe six saiyans taking as long as Gohan to unlock their super modes, relative to the time someone was teaching them to.

Spending time on Caulifa and Kale "learning" the So Last Season power-up? That sounds like it would have produced an extremely boring filler arc that we would have complained about regardless.

An alternate solution, just have someone in universe six learn super saiyan during the Goku Black-Zamasu incident, the baseball game, Gohan's movie, Krillen's retraining and the Zen exhibition.

That would have been a better use of the filler episodes, I admit.

I could be wrong, but I get the impression that even with animation lead time someone is still last minute writing(edit:no, I'm not assuming it's Toriyama again).

Unless Caulifa and Kale aren't in the manga or Toriyama's notes, then it's not really Toei's fau-

-shot-

edited 24th Nov '17 8:42:02 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#69314: Nov 24th 2017 at 11:24:20 AM

Man, even in the last episode recap Goku's voice makes me wince and all he's doing is screaming while he flies to go kill steal from Vegeta. Whis sounds rather camp in Japanese.

Even if Champa is fat, he's almost as strong as Beerus right? Did we really need a fat joke about how he's tired just from walking through that tiny patch of jungle? It doesn't make any sense.

Okay seriously all the fat jokes are getting annoying. Not because I have some great thing about 'fat shaming' but because they aren't funny and they just make Vados and Beerus look like assholes.

RF: Humans are so great and wonderful that they even tamed the savage Saiyan!
Champa: Humans are stupid warmongers who wiped themselves out for trivial reasons.

If Champa has the Super Dragon Balls, why doesn't he just wish for his own Earth back instead of wanting to steal Beerus. Is it because he wants to take what belongs to someone else out of spite or because he's stupid?

Anyway, so this is basically a no stakes match then? I mean, if Goku's team were to lose nothing significant would change, apparently. And if they win then Beerus gets them and I assume wishes back Universe 6 Earth because d'awww look brothers do care about each other. It's not like there's anything that he's expressed a desire for that he doesn't already have.

Oh right, overall opinion was that the episode was basically functional.

edited 24th Nov '17 11:26:39 AM by Arha

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#69315: Nov 24th 2017 at 11:31:25 AM

Vados and Beerus look like assholes.

See, you just answered your question right there Arha.[lol]

RF: Humans are so great and wonderful that they even tamed the savage Saiyan! Champa: Humans are stupid warmongers who wiped themselves out for trivial reasons.

Pretty much.

If Champa has the Super Dragon Balls, why doesn't he just wish for his own Earth back instead of wanting to steal Beerus. Is it because he wants to take what belongs to someone else out of spite or because he's stupid?

Primarily column A, but at least a little of Column B. Remember, he didn't even know about Earth and it's food until this moment, so that probably wasn't part of his original show up Beerus plan.

Anyway, so this is basically a no stakes match then? I mean, if Goku's team were to lose nothing significant would change, apparently. And if they win then Beerus gets them and I assume wishes back Universe 6 Earth because d'awww look brothers do care about each other.

.... No comment.

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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#69316: Nov 24th 2017 at 11:45:35 AM

Goku's voice makes me wince and all he's doing is screaming

Did we really need a fat joke about how he's tired just from walking through that tiny patch of jungle? It doesn't make any sense.

Okay seriously all the fat jokes are getting annoying ...

they aren't funny and they just make Vados and Beerus look like assholes...

why doesn't he just...

...Is it because he wants to take what belongs to someone else out of spite or because he's stupid?

d'awww look brothers do care about each other. It's not like there's anything that he's expressed a desire for that he doesn't already have.

Oh right, overall opinion was that the episode was basically functional.

...yeah, I don't think you're going to enjoy Super very much. In for a penny in for a pound I suppose.

edited 24th Nov '17 11:48:44 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69317: Nov 24th 2017 at 4:24:49 PM

Whis sounds rather camp in Japanese.

Does he not sound camp to you in English?

they just make Vados and Beerus look like assholes.

Are they not assholes?

Champa: Humans are stupid warmongers who wiped themselves out for trivial reasons.

Universe 6 =/= Universe 7. Humans were dumb in that universe. They aren't in Goku's.

Well, not AS dumb.

Anyway, so this is basically a no stakes match then?

More or less. Worst case scenario, Beerus and Whis don't get to eat their favorite foods anymore and the main cast never get to see the Gods and Namekians they're familiar with again/as often.

The characters themselves are pretty blase about the stakes, too.

edited 24th Nov '17 4:31:04 PM by Hobgoblin

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#69318: Nov 24th 2017 at 4:31:15 PM

He doesn't sound camp, though I definitely wouldn't say he sounds super manly or tough.

And I meant just assholes. Not funny assholes. They aren't the same thing.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#69319: Nov 24th 2017 at 4:36:45 PM

Might as well be the same, because it's confusing for people who don't label.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#69320: Nov 24th 2017 at 5:03:27 PM

The deal with tingly backs is basically: Saiyans use rage to unlock transformation -> after unlocking they can transform whenever they want by using energy in the back as an "on/off" switch. Caulifla cutting out the middleman and skipping straight to the on switch to become super saiyan is meant to hype her up as a super prodigy. Imagine if she had gotten it off screen or by rage just like everyone else? Yawn. Boring! But by showing her work around something we'd taken for granted, it shows off her great potential and cements her as someone to watch out for in the tournament.

Unfortunately it doesn't come off well because tingly backs are just soooooo inherently goofy. It's silly to watch. And the explanation could have been done better too.

Which is a damned shame, because the introduction of the first ever female Super Saiyans should be a huge cause for celebration, but it's been so botched.

This is what I consider "making a mountain out of a molehill". Just because something isn't done very well doesn't mean it's some horrible mess that taints every character it's associated with.

Okay seriously all the fat jokes are getting annoying. Not because I have some great thing about 'fat shaming' but because they aren't funny and they just make Vados and Beerus look like assholes.

The fat shaming is pretty bad too though.

By the way, if you want to watch it instead, the dubbed version of the Universe 6 saga concluded last week on Toonami.

edited 24th Nov '17 5:05:20 PM by Moth13

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#69321: Nov 24th 2017 at 5:09:01 PM

Yeah maybe switch to the dub Arha.

[up] It's not like the tingly back was any more exciting than rage or obtaining it off-screen. It was just silly, a retcon AND boring.

And we've just had... so many characters that have already done the 'great potential' thing that doing it with her isn't exciting anyway. In order to top that, they just have make her even more special which leads to less justification and build up used for her and the end result is nothing exciting, just annoyances.

Despite Kale being a Broly shout out, at least they played up her berserk transformation as something other Saiyans didn't have to deal with. Caulifla is just nothing new.

edit: Oh, this is late, but on Battle of Gods being "really good" - as you've already seen, Arha, it doesn't really hold up to that (and I would have told you, I never thought it was good). But it's probably the best of the new material we've gotten, and I think the humour was above average for this series and made me laugh.

edited 24th Nov '17 5:12:03 PM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#69322: Nov 24th 2017 at 5:17:59 PM

This is what I consider "making a mountain out of a molehill". Just because something isn't done very well doesn't mean it's some horrible mess that taints every character it's associated with.

True, but there are some who might use this as an excuse to do just that. I don't know how Caulifa and Kale are doing in Japan, but if they aren't popular, it wouldn't be the first time executives learned the wrong lesson (i.e. that people don't want female Super Saiyans rather than they want WELL DONE female Super Saiyans).

And we've just had... so many characters that have already done the 'great potential' thing that doing it with her isn't exciting anyway. In order to top that, they just have make her even more special which leads to less justification and build up used for her and the end result is nothing exciting, just annoyances.

Come to think of it, this has been done before. Gohan, Goten and Trunks were all shown to have buttloads of potential, only for it to lead to nothing in the end since they weren't allowed to win, and currently being pushed out of the spotlight, thought that applies more to Goten and Trunks than Gohan right now.

Hell, in the case of the former two, not only are they not being allowed to grow up at this point, but we know in the future that they slack off on training and never really reach the full potential they were meant to have.

One Strip! One Strip!
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#69323: Nov 24th 2017 at 5:19:54 PM

[up][up]I'd say tingly backs are too memorable (for being silly) to be boring, and while it's no "big emotional moment" like some of the best super saiyan transformations, it's at least something we haven't seen a million times before and explains why we should be hyped for something left in the dust five arcs ago.

And I don't know about you, but I think the end result ended up being pretty dang exciting myself.

edited 24th Nov '17 5:31:40 PM by Moth13

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#69324: Nov 24th 2017 at 5:21:41 PM

I'm sure Kale and Caulifla will be popular enough with how hard they were pushed, and just how strong they are. They may get flack by certain parts of the internet, but other sections of the fanbase will like any character that's portrayed as really strong. Same for any other reason to like/dislike them.

Polarizing isn't a bad thing at all if the favouring side is big and fervent enough.

edit: I don't think being memorable is the same as not being boring. The scene is pretty boring to me.

As for the end result... eh. Still not worth. There were plenty of other ways to go about it, and honestly Caulifla only reach relevant levels with potara, so there wasn't much need to hype her up.

edited 24th Nov '17 5:24:03 PM by Saiga

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#69325: Nov 24th 2017 at 5:25:30 PM

They are two attractive young women of legitimate strength with one being a blood knight.

Regardless of whatever issues one might have with their execution they are indeed popular.

edited 24th Nov '17 5:27:32 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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