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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#68301: Nov 10th 2017 at 7:45:41 PM

See, if they are gonna have them jump, I want it to be with plausible shit.

Not just something like fighting Poachers. That's bullshit.

There were plenty of in-universe ways for 17 to reach that level, but they couldn't even bother with that.

One Strip! One Strip!
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#68302: Nov 10th 2017 at 8:05:57 PM

..it occurs to me that Universe 7 had the second lowest "mortal level," according to the Grand Priest, and yet they've basically wrecked everybody else in the tournament excluding Jiren, Hit, Kale, Botamo and Magetta.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#68303: Nov 10th 2017 at 8:12:34 PM

Mortal Levels are not Power Levels. U9 and U7 suck because they're terrible places to live that have been horribly mismanaged by their Hakaishin and Kaioshin. If the Tournament of Power had taken place even 30 years earlier, U7 would be screwed because the only person on their team remotely capable of hanging with anyone in this tournament would be Dabura. Freeza would be one-shot by literally anyone from any other universe, and he'd be their second strongest.

edited 10th Nov '17 8:15:48 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#68304: Nov 10th 2017 at 8:13:09 PM

Mortal Level may not have anything to do with the quality of the fighters.

Jiren might very well be able to JusticeLeague beat up real gods and make them cry (Which is perfect for a Superman expy...even if the line came from Martian Manhunter), but he's still on the chopping block with the other universes.

...[nja]'ed

edited 10th Nov '17 8:13:37 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#68305: Nov 10th 2017 at 10:20:12 PM

Frieza's reaction to him shows even the characters are aware of how wasted Universe 3 is

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#68306: Nov 11th 2017 at 3:30:26 AM

I really don't get some people obsession with having humans "relevant". Is it some kind of childish human supremacy thing? Like, they can't even stand completely fictional aliens being better than hoomans? Because that's just retarded. Would they still care if Goku and Vegeta were humans who just happened to be light years ahead of everyone else and had special super human transformations? Or is it the "I like this side character so he should be the main focus instead" thing? Which is equally as stupid.

Seriously, this "humans should be as strong as the sayians" thing comes up again and again and I never seen any good reasoning behind it.

edited 11th Nov '17 3:30:46 AM by Shlugo_the_great

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#68307: Nov 11th 2017 at 3:41:17 AM

Ya know funny thing I'm actually pretty anti-human. My main in Xenoverse is a Frieza clansmen.

I don't care about humanity as whole, they can go fuck themselves but I do like the individual characters like Krillen, Yamcha & Tien.

edited 11th Nov '17 3:41:28 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#68308: Nov 11th 2017 at 4:03:19 AM

Guess I should have paid more attention when they were describing the other universes. I only remember them showing Sidra and his Supreme Kai trying to recruit outlaws, and Cabba trying to recruit Caulifa - in a show about where having higher numbers typically makes you better, I'd assumed "mortal level" was some kind of average for how strong everyone in that universe was.

Seriously, this "humans should be as strong as the sayians" thing comes up again and again and I never seen any good reasoning behind it.

It's not complicated. Probably 2/3 of the main cast were human characters once upon a time, given just enough depth or cool techniques that a good amount of the audience becomes attached to them in some way. It's understandable that if a character who is still a capable fighter isn't relevant in a show where fighting is the primary feature, you'd want them to be relevant again and see them fight more often. For a long time, the escalation of threats in Dragonball has rendered these characters insignificant, when they used to be major antagonists/allies.

These aren't characters who were in Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw and only appeared in the background for a bit note , these were supporting cast members who played a big part in Goku's character development back when the series first started, or rather, they were the ones developing while Goku mostly stuck to his guns and wanted to train or to eat. It would be a great disservice to say they were never really important to begin with or that they weren't memorable - fans got attached to them. It's hard not to get attached to them given how static Goku is as a character. I'd argue the only way to not get attached to them is to simply not watch or read Dragonball at its earliest stages.

There are fans whose favorite characters are Piccolo and Tien. So naturally, they're going to want to see them more. It's not like anyone here is bending over backwards going, "HUMANS SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE SUPER SAIYAN BECAUSE WHY NOT VEGETA CAN GO BLUE WITHOUT THE RITUAL." Yeah, that's kind of dumb.

edited 11th Nov '17 4:13:14 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#68309: Nov 11th 2017 at 4:11:29 AM

I jumped in at the beginning of Z, like many in the states, so as a kid most of my exposure to the show (the Saiyan/Freeza Saga) had me believing Dragon Ball was more or less the Gohan and Krillin show. Goku was obviously the heavy hitter, but he was never alive/not broken/around when stuff started.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#68310: Nov 11th 2017 at 4:13:38 AM

Ah so it's the "Why aren't my favorite characters the most important ones!" thing. Noted.

The only way I can understand not getting attached to any of the human characters is simply not watching or reading the original Dragonball, and never developing an attachment to them in the first place.

Speak for yourself. I started with the original Dragonball and have n problem with the humans being phased out. It's just how the story developed.

There are fans whose favorite characters are Piccolo and Tien. So naturally, they're going to want to see them more.

Funny thing, because this arc brought those character back into a greater prominence than they had in a long time, but it sure doesn't seem like people are satisfied with that.

[up]Yeah, this is funny because original Dragon Ball was much more of an one man show than Z.

edited 11th Nov '17 4:15:32 AM by Shlugo_the_great

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#68311: Nov 11th 2017 at 4:15:46 AM

I lucked out and got to watch Dragonball and Z back to back.

So from that [up] (2) perspective, I can understand not "getting" why people like Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, etc. Otherwise I'd have to assume someone just not liking all of the human characters and wanted them gone.[up] Case in point. [nja]

Speak for yourself. I started with the original Dragonball and have n problem with the humans being phased out. It's just how the story developed.

Then this sounds more like you just not liking those characters in the first place and refusing to sympathize with people who do, rather than said people having fanatical levels of devotion to those characters.

most people aren't satisfied

People aren't satisfied with a lot of things from Super. The only complaint I have about the humans here is that 17 and 18 aren't more active in this tournament. Everything else has been fine. Tien even got to make a badass exit by falling with style.

edited 11th Nov '17 4:45:20 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#68312: Nov 11th 2017 at 4:20:18 AM

I started with Z but I still like the 3 humans.

Krillen making a fun duo with Gohan, Yamcha the lovable loser & Tien the badass who despite always being outclassed never stops giving his all at over 200%.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#68313: Nov 11th 2017 at 4:33:46 AM

Ah so it's the "Why aren't my favorite characters the most important ones!" thing. Noted.

Y'know, there's quite a bit of difference between "the most important ones" and "bearing any level of importance whatsoever". In Z, unless you were a direct descendant of either Bardock or King Vegeta, you were pretty much doomed to become worthless in combat situations, and that kind of sucked for some people.

Why are you constantly belittling people for liking characters who aren't Goku or Vegeta? Am I that pathetic because Krillin's my fave?

edited 11th Nov '17 4:35:30 AM by TyeDyeWildebeest

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#68314: Nov 11th 2017 at 4:44:41 AM

Ah yes, it's because I'm a hater. That's truly the only reason why anyone would not buy into the constant complaining about humans not keeping up with the sayians possible. Well, you learn new things every day.

Then this sounds more like you just not liking those characters in the first place.

Yes yes, everyone who disagrees with you is a hater. Clearly.

People aren't satisfied with a lot of things from Super. The only complaint I have about the humans here is that 17 and 18 aren't more active in this tournament. Everything else has been fine. Tien even got to make a badass exit by falling with style.

But it's clearly not enough for some people, otherwise we wouldn't come back to the same topic roughly twice a week, every week.

Why are you constantly belittling people for liking characters who aren't Goku or Vegeta? Am I that pathetic because Krillin's my fave?

Oh look, another new thing I learned about myself. I had no idea I was "constantly belittling people". This day proves to be the most enlightening.

Also, you know you can like a character even if he isn't the strongest or in the center of attention, right?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#68315: Nov 11th 2017 at 4:46:19 AM

Tye, you are not the type of human fan anyone's bemoaning.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#68316: Nov 11th 2017 at 4:46:55 AM

Ah yes, it's because I'm a hater. That's truly the only reason why anyone would not buy into the constant complaining about humans not keeping up with the sayians possible. Well, you learn new things every day.

I mean, you're the one who went, "why do people like these characters? People who can't accept that they aren't as important anymore are just whining."

But it's clearly not enough for some people, otherwise we wouldn't come back to the same topic roughly twice a week, every week.

We come back to the same topics here a lot. Was Super Saiyan 2 Gohan stronger than Perfect Cell? What power level was so and so on Namek? What are the greater existential implications behind potara fusion? Is Goku a bad father? GT is the worst thing that ever happened, ever! Akira Toriyama doesn't remember anything, he said this, he said that! Which is better, Super the Manga, or Super the Anime?

Bringing up the relevance of the human characters is just another facet of discussing Dragon Ball with any large enough group of people. And it's perfectly relevant because of what's going on in Super at the moment.

edited 11th Nov '17 4:54:30 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#68317: Nov 11th 2017 at 5:25:36 AM

Wow, nice strawman there. That's not what I said at all, and I just wonder if you're doing it on purpose or if it's a reading comprehension failure.

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#68318: Nov 11th 2017 at 5:58:47 AM

I mean, you did say this:

I really don't get some people obsession with having humans "relevant". Is it some kind of childish human supremacy thing? Like, they can't even stand completely fictional aliens being better than hoomans? Because that's just retarded.

That sounds pretty belittling to me. Also, please don't use the R word.

@Verymelon: Okay, granted. Sorry if I came off as defensive.

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#68319: Nov 11th 2017 at 6:56:33 AM

I just dislike the idea that relevancy must always come from being strong. Bulma is more relevant than Gohan, Goten, and Trunks I'd say and she doesn't fight at all.

This song needs more love.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#68320: Nov 11th 2017 at 8:01:35 AM

Wow, nice strawman there. That's not what I said at all,

You said

I really don't get some people obsession with having humans "relevant". Is it some kind of childish human supremacy thing? Like, they can't even stand completely fictional aliens being better than hoomans? Because that's just retarded. Would they still care if Goku and Vegeta were humans who just happened to be light years ahead of everyone else and had special super human transformations? Or is it the "I like this side character so he should be the main focus instead" thing? Which is equally as stupid.

Ah so it's the "Why aren't my favorite characters the most important ones!" thing. Noted.

I said

mean, you're the one who went, "why do people like these characters? People who can't accept that they aren't as important anymore are just whining."

So no, that isn't exactly what you said, but that's the connotation it gave off.

I just dislike the idea that relevancy must always come from being strong. Bulma is more relevant than Gohan, Goten, and Trunks I'd say and she doesn't fight at all.

I think that's just part and parcel with this genre.

Bulma is relevant yes, but she has a different role to play and not that of a combatant - she's a smart cookie and that's never called into question, or downplayed by the story, because even now Bulma's smarts/wealth are contributing.

Tien and Krillin don't really have that luxury because they were always fighters, which is severely downplayed because they simply Can't Catch Up to Goku and Vegeta.

The only ways they could be relevant without nerfing Goku and Vegeta, is if one of them formed some kind of bond with a new character/antagonist, or if they used Fusion, or if one of them had an ability that specifically gave them an advantage that Goku and Vegeta lacked, or if Super told a story without Goku and Vegeta at the center of it.

But we've seen what that leads to.

edited 11th Nov '17 8:06:26 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#68321: Nov 11th 2017 at 8:39:10 AM

I like Goku, and I like Vegeta, but I still like the humans, and it always seemed like Toriyama never had any use for them outside of being measuring sticks for Goku.

If that was the case, it's kinda frustrating, but that's how it goes, but then he insists on sending them into battles with the intention of having them be unable to do anything in order to once again drive home that only Goku is any good.

All other fights are mostly just warm ups to when Goku shows up to save the day. He comes up with a lot of cool techniques or powers for them, but they are set up purely to fail from the get go, and the scale grew so large that all their cool powers were only relevant when Goku stole them.

I just kinda wish Toriyama would retire them instead of keeping them around as punching bags.

As for Bulma, she does get to do more, but even her technology has it's limits (look at her role on Namek: once she got them there, the ship was immediately destroyed, and she was regulated to the background for the rest of the arc). If she can't use her money or be a techno-wiz, she can't do much either.

One Strip! One Strip!
felipelight Teacher from Undisclosed Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Teacher
#68322: Nov 11th 2017 at 9:11:03 AM

I care fuck all about the humans, but we see a huge disparity of power on the DC universe but the weak heroes stay relevant on their own turf and tier. Just make a human and piccolo spinoff and let them handle lower level threats

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#68323: Nov 11th 2017 at 9:41:05 AM

According to Hems, Toyotaro originally wanted Belmod and Marcarita to act like lovers, but Toriyama disliked the idea.

So, yes, they are the Joker and Harley Quinn, confirmed.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#68324: Nov 11th 2017 at 9:43:13 AM

Is it safe to say that ultra instinct has become a meme?

¡PONLE QUE DIGA!:"¡HUMONGOSAURIO HASTA LA MUERTE!"
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#68325: Nov 11th 2017 at 9:51:02 AM

I don't see why Bulma couldn't cannibalize some Gero-tech to, say, make a Sentai-style power suit that could bring the humans up to Piccolo/Android level.


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