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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#67126: Oct 27th 2017 at 10:05:11 PM

He only said that in Kai, and Goku didn't sleep in Super Saiyan. The implication is that Blue is actually even better than Mastered Super Saiyan in terms of Ki control. There was also mention of Blue being different from Super Saiyan because Super Saiyan is unlocked through rage while Blue is a more tranquil form.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#67127: Oct 27th 2017 at 10:17:37 PM

I thought he said it in all versions of the anime, did he not?

Anyway, the ki control thing is weird. Blue having that quality is only really brought up when Goku mentions that. However, it should be noted that SSFP was about minimalizing the stamina drain above all, and Blue is incredibly draining.

So ki control =/= stamina efficiency. SSFP does not necessarily have perfect ki control.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#67128: Oct 27th 2017 at 11:56:43 PM

This conversation about how Goku should be able to use the Kaioken in Super Saiyan due to perfect ki control only reminds me that Toei included filler of just that many years ago.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#67129: Oct 28th 2017 at 2:50:24 AM

Toei likes forms, and combining forms; remember how Trunks got one just because last year.

Blue Kaioken doesn't exist so far in the Super manga, yet Blue manages to feel imposing and hard to use.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#67130: Oct 28th 2017 at 3:00:35 AM

The only reason Super Kaioken worked was because Goku was dead at the time, and it's kinda pointless since it just has the same power boost as Super Saiyan 2.

Maybe if he stacked Kaioken multipliers like with Blue Kaioken x10 and x20, but even then that can fuck up his body.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#67131: Oct 28th 2017 at 7:47:50 AM

Anyway, the ki control thing is weird. Blue having that quality is only really brought up when Goku mentions that. However, it should be noted that SSFP was about minimalizing the stamina drain above all, and Blue is incredibly draining. So ki control =/= stamina efficiency. SSFP does not necessarily have perfect ki control.

See all of this time I would have assumed this was basically the same thing. I thought Goku and Gohan staying in this form for all of that time meant better ki control/stamina efficiency. If it's more stamina-efficient, then wouldn't that mean they're controlling their ki better than they were before?

I never heard Cell mention he could use the Kaioken. I'll have to look for that clip, but that evidence suits my purposes just fine.

edited 28th Oct '17 9:47:30 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#67132: Oct 28th 2017 at 9:04:12 AM

The reason Goku doesn't use Kaioken while in Super Saiyan is because Toriyama didn't want to use Kaioken anymore and wrote it out without bothering to explain why.

If there's an in-universe explanation for why Goku didn't try combining them, I'll eat my hat (mental note: buy a chocolate Bowler hat), but for now, there's nothing more to it than that.

I'm only saying this because up until it was brought up, I assume that the combined straight of both Super Saiyan and Kaioken was an unspoken explanation for why he didn't stack them, but the point about Full Powered Super Saiyan kinda throws that into doubt. Because you would think that being able to better control your ki through full powered Super Saiyan would let Goku be better able to withstand Kaioken as a Super Saiyan.

Until we get an official explanation for it, I have no choice but to assume that, as is often the case with it, Toriyama just tossed it out without much care.

One Strip! One Strip!
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#67133: Oct 28th 2017 at 9:54:47 AM

Does the explanation in super not count as official for you?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#67134: Oct 28th 2017 at 10:21:03 AM

...I suppose it does.

It works now (though the manga is going it's own way) but I'm saying that Toriyama just tossing it out is the explanation for why Goku couldn't do it back then, as I find it odd that there's such a huge difference between mastering his Ki as a normal saiyan through the full power method, and doing so while in blue. You'd think mastering your ki would be the same no matter the form.

One Strip! One Strip!
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#67135: Oct 28th 2017 at 10:44:03 AM

I can buy that it works because god ki is fundamentally different from regular ki in some undefined way.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#67136: Oct 28th 2017 at 11:04:00 AM

It doesn't matter if it makes sense or not. The main purpose behind bringing it back was to build up Jiren's ability to No-Sell it.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#67137: Oct 28th 2017 at 11:33:57 AM

So a random thought: Jiren is meditating because, after beating Goku and taking out Hit, he's convinced that there's literally no one who can beat him now (which must be pretty frustrating for Vegeta, who's maybe only a little weaker than Goku, but then again, Goku has a lot more in his arsenal), but we've observed that Frieza in his Golden form is nearly as strong as Goku (especially now that he's worked out the stamina issues).

So either Jiren is unaware of how strong Golden Frieza is (and he's been somewhat frugal in his use of it, as I think he's only busted it out against Gohan for a fake battle), or Frieza has been weighed, measured, and found wanting.

Considering how they are playing Jiren, the latter seems more likely.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#67138: Oct 28th 2017 at 11:37:44 AM

It's not like Kaioken x 20 Blue Goku stood a chance against Jiren and Vegeta and Frieza don't have anything to match that. Goku was only a threat because of Ultra Instinct.

And Frieza has been pretty open about his opinion of Jiren: he's a monster whom he would really like to not fight if he can possibly avoid it. There's no (direct) threat to Jiren from Frieza.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#67139: Oct 28th 2017 at 11:39:44 AM

He used Golden against Cabbage, too.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#67140: Oct 28th 2017 at 11:50:30 AM

I can buy that it works because god ki is fundamentally different from regular ki in some undefined way.

I can buy that it works, I can't buy that it works for the reason Goku says it does.

It baffles me that we have Blue distinguished in the show itself from Full Power Super Saiyan, because "Blue gives perfect ki control, while Mastered Super Saiyan just wastes less energy."

Super Kaioken Blue is still a great workaround. It bugs me because it's such an arbitrary difference in wording that only serves to invalidate an easily-workable, albeit forgettable concept.

Like heck, even if Goku just said, "you know I was thinking about doing this with Super Saiyan, but it wouldn't have made much of a difference back then," I would've accepted that more than, "ki control is different from energy conservation."

edited 28th Oct '17 12:03:32 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#67141: Oct 28th 2017 at 11:52:59 AM

I also love Kaioken blue (in fact, that should be happening in the dub soon), but you kinda hit the nail on the head.

One Strip! One Strip!
TwistedGear Don't know how to pilot this thing Since: Jun, 2014
Don't know how to pilot this thing
#67142: Oct 28th 2017 at 12:39:56 PM

surely it's posible that goku tried using kaioken and supersayain on yardrat only to find he couldn't trigger both, and he assumed he'd lost use of it? The next time he uses in anything is the fight against pikkon, right? That would have been after training with king kai so he'd have been able to confirm the original issue. And then he got SS 2 (whihc he never mastered to not drain as far as know)and SS 3 (which never got a mastered form at all) so wouldn't have the compatibility and the power boost would be atleast on par with the strongest Super Kaio-ken. So yeah, makes sense even without an in universe explanation.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#67143: Oct 28th 2017 at 12:42:05 PM

I mean, yeah, it's possible but a lot of things are possible. I don't really have an issue with it being something for the audience to infer, but I get why people would.

An Pikkon is a filler character.

TwistedGear Don't know how to pilot this thing Since: Jun, 2014
Don't know how to pilot this thing
#67144: Oct 28th 2017 at 12:52:14 PM

[up] Yes, but he's one of the best filler characters. Atleast in the sense of what arc he was in. I'm still weirded out that the otherworld tournament was filler, I mostly only saw the filler in the anime, the rest of my knowledge came from the manga and video games. But I feel like I read about the tournament in the manga.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#67145: Oct 28th 2017 at 12:55:15 PM

He was Semi-Perfect Piccolo...

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#67146: Oct 28th 2017 at 1:49:28 PM

Piccolo, Hit, and Pikkon should all fuse together in a video game.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#67147: Oct 28th 2017 at 1:51:59 PM

How about we just get Golden Hit instead?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#67148: Oct 28th 2017 at 3:22:36 PM

[up][up][up] pfft

nice

See all of this time I would have assumed this was basically the same thing. I thought Goku and Gohan staying in this form for all of that time meant better ki control/stamina efficiency. If it's more stamina-efficient, then wouldn't that mean they're controlling their ki better than they were before?

A lot of people made that assumption, but not really? Ki control (manipulating it) which the Kaio-ken requires is not thesame thing as ki-efficiency. The form isn't more stamina efficient because they're actively controlling their ki to prevent waste, it's because their bodies become adapted to it. The way Goku describes Kaio-ken, it's something you actively have to control.

So, he's losing less stamina per minute but he can't manipulate it for finer things as well. I'm not happy with that distinction only coming up in that scene, but I don't think it's too big a deal to separate control from stamina drain. And Super Saiyan 1 still has to be flawed in some way, since Old Kaioshin mentions as much when he has Ultimate Gohan access his power without it.

I never heard Cell mention he could use the Kaioken. I'll have to look for that clip, but that evidence suits my purposes just fine.

but be sure to give a good reason for why he didn't in the main timeline :B

LLSmoothJ (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#67149: Oct 28th 2017 at 4:38:18 PM

[up]x2 Actually, I would prefer if we got a Platinum Hit.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#67150: Oct 28th 2017 at 4:47:50 PM

I'd kind of like to move away from using Pokemon games to define forms, personally.

edited 28th Oct '17 4:47:58 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.

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