TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#66926: Oct 25th 2017 at 4:12:46 AM

You mean unless they can be brute forced, right? Like Hit's Time Skip?

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#66927: Oct 25th 2017 at 4:15:04 AM

[up][up] Any hope of characters catching up to Goku has been dashed years ago...

edited 25th Oct '17 4:15:44 AM by GAP

"Mai waifu."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#66928: Oct 25th 2017 at 4:16:21 AM

That's all Dragon Ball is about though.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#66929: Oct 25th 2017 at 5:29:38 AM

Yeah, and I love how fights work in DB. Though the haters do have a point as to how the fights are portrayed, but all that means is that this series probably isn't for them.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#66930: Oct 25th 2017 at 5:35:12 AM

[up][up][up][up] Not necessarily. That's just a good way to avoid Story-Breaker Power and Super Power Lottery creeping in, because brute force is the universal superpower.

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#66931: Oct 25th 2017 at 5:54:24 AM

[up] True but sad. All you need is be stronger than the person you are fighting and you can brute force them.

Establishing hard limits in a series all about change is only really a problem for the worldbuilding of the series if you intend to continue building that world for a long time afterwards. And while those stories were very long in comparison to what came before, in terms of number of arcs Dragonball didn't really have many stories after Freeza. The next big threat are explicitly exceptional inventions that use the data (and later the outright "DNA") of the previous threats. The next threat after that a magical monster that explicitly threatens the gods themselves, and isn't mortal. And then it's over, so it all worked pretty well. But Super is having a problem with it because... well... now it's intending to continue to the story and keep continuing it (with the same formula as before) where Toriyama wasn't initially intending to go on that way for so long. It's the kind of thing most continuations have to go through, but the way Super has been handling it hasn't been stellar in the past. Their handling of stuff like that is also something I've been wondering about in regards to End Of Z, mostly because I think it's inevitable that Super is going to end up trying to retcon it in some way.

And most people hated it too. Also, the story has taken Goku out of the picture to focus on everyone else. That usually results in them all getting stomped because without Goku, they stand no chance at all. Both the Saiyan Saga and Trunks' timeline have hammered that home incredibly hard, namely because the enemy that shows up is almost always Goku tier, which is a hundred tiers above the heroes.

The issue is that when you move out the Goku/Vegeta tier, you still have the U Gohan and S Gotenks tier under it. Below that, Majin Boo. Then waaaay below that you have the SS, Piccolo and Android tier (which is a wide tier in itself) and waaaaaaaay below that, finally you have the humans. It's not just Goku/Vegeta. There is such a massive power gap in the entire rest of the cast that trying to use all of them gets really contrived.

There's a few things that make the universe small. The most recent being that the confirmation that there's only, like, a couple dozen inhabited planets in Universe 7. The most obvious being that Freeza, from Namek, is explicitly the strongest person in the universe outside of the main cast. Toriyama's never abandoned that idea, with every new threat being some kind of reasonable caveat to that. But we've exhausted so many caveats for Universe 7 that continuing to introduce them would feel cheap, and that's the reason why nowadays the threats have shifted from mortals to gods (though Goku is also rapidly reaching a point where nobody in the multiverse can challenge him at all beyond Gods of Destruction and Zen-o, but that's a problem for another conversation). That wouldn't specifically change if everyone in the participating universe's comes to Universe 7 (since if Universe 7 wins, that means their strongest guy is the strongest in all the participating universes anyway), but it would increase their options. In part because it lets them introduce new whatever ideas that were once alien to Universe 7 that they can think of (sometimes if you can't go stronger, it works to go stranger), and also because it works both ways: Jiren and Toppo are the only people who can challenge Goku in the tournament, but at the same time Goku and Vegeta (and maybe Gohan, depending on what this arc does with him) are the only people who can challenge the top level combatants from the other universe's anyway. It's a lot easier to make a reason for Goku and Vegeta be absent from the plot or unable to fight for a while (Dragonball's been doing it for years), then to try to either sell a plot where someone at Freeza's level is somehow a threat or continually make excuses for why this new bad guy is an exception to the rule. It basically lets them continue to have their cake and eat it without having to make (as many) excuses. That said, the endgame of this is still going to the four universes who didn't participate in the tournament, because those are total unknowns and Toriyama could far more easily have each of them have people far stronger than Jiren and Goku if he wanted to.

[tup]

edited 25th Oct '17 6:01:40 AM by GAP

"Mai waifu."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#66932: Oct 25th 2017 at 5:58:05 AM

That's not what I meant. I mean that brute force (or raw "ki level" in DB) works as a good counter to esoteric powers because it prevents you ended up with the kind of power that's just logically invincible without some weird, equally esoteric counter. That's an issue I see with many series that will use esoteric powers.

Power levels/ki/brute force can be used to keep esoteric powers in check, so they don't get out of hand.

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#66933: Oct 25th 2017 at 6:03:45 AM

That makes sense.

"Mai waifu."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#66934: Oct 25th 2017 at 6:30:43 AM

Like I dislike how Piccolos Namek role didnt have much purpose or his fusion with God didnt get used for much, but giving him a new power up wont change either of those.

I also hate that Piccolo was brought in like that just to fail (and to make the situation more dire) on Namek, and that his fusion with Kami only amounted to telling Cell where the Androids were. Why bother with bringing him up just to waste it?

As for brute force vs more creative methods of fighting...I would say there's room for both, but at the level dragon ball is all, there's no need to really bother with being creative.

To paraphrase a certain Lich:

All you need is power, in as great a concentration as you can muster.

Well ok, technique is still important (Full power Super Saiyan anyone) but you need power as well, and while fancy tricks can work around that sometimes, they can't always save you if the other guy has enough raw brute strength.

I don't like it cause I like the humans myself, and would prefer that they not be used as punching bags to establish threat, but we're long past that point, so it's better to just let them properly bow out like it seemed like they were doing at the end of Cell.

Could they have not made the gaps so huge? Yeah. Could they have allowed the other's to use Kaioken since Goku stopped needing it (while not making the gaps so huge)? Yeah.

They didn't and while I'm not happy about it, that's just how it is, and trying to suddenly claim these guys can be relevant like they were (and they weren't that relevant in combat before) is kinda dumb.

One Strip! One Strip!
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#66935: Oct 25th 2017 at 6:34:20 AM

[up] Agree especially with that last line, any hope of the humans not being squishy has sailed years ago despite what Super tries to tell us.

"Mai waifu."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#66936: Oct 25th 2017 at 6:37:05 AM

At this point we just gotta move one.

Nothing we can do about it & clinging to desperate ideas won't help.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#66937: Oct 25th 2017 at 6:38:45 AM

I mean, Goku was always kinda ahead of them, with only Roshi, and then Tien standing any chance, and that quickly changed despite the best efforts of the latter.

Like I said, when they were totally helpless against a near half dead Piccolo, that's when it became clear that their role was to sit back and wait for Goku.

If Toriyama hadn't wanted it that way, he could have changed things: let them catch up to him or not make him so far ahead, but he didn't.

I hate it, cause I like those guys techniques, think they make for some interesting fights and strategies, and that some of their potential uses haven't been fully explored, but that's how it is.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#66938: Oct 25th 2017 at 6:43:08 AM

I wanna point out that the humans stopped being "punching bags to establish threat" a long time ago.

And when they were punching bags, it was when they were at their most "relevant".

edited 25th Oct '17 6:43:54 AM by Saiga

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#66939: Oct 25th 2017 at 6:48:38 AM

Don't you guys have better things to complain about, it's like an echo chamber in here with how much we complain "Why can't everyone be strong and relevant" or some variation of it.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#66940: Oct 25th 2017 at 6:49:36 AM

Eh it always gets brought up.

I don't know why. (Shrugs)

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#66941: Oct 25th 2017 at 6:52:28 AM

I love that this most recent arc has brought all of the side characters up to current levels of relative relevance. Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi can all hang with the base Saiyans in terms of power, which allows them to fight and defeat opponents that the base Saiyans could have trouble with. Same with 18 remaining stronger than the base Saiyans, Piccolo rising slightly above Super Saiyan 2, 17 and Gohan being somewhere in the lower godly tiers, and Freeza coming back at Saiyan Beyond God and Blue level.

It's what I've said for a while, the humans don't need to be as strong as a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan Blue to play a relevant part in the story, just be as strong as a Saiyan.

edited 25th Oct '17 7:26:16 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#66942: Oct 25th 2017 at 6:53:04 AM

...

Damn. I got nothing. Someone come up with something.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#66943: Oct 25th 2017 at 7:18:24 AM

[up][up] I wouldn't really say it's all that impressive, but it's they found some niche for them.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#66944: Oct 25th 2017 at 7:20:04 AM

Where does Completed Super Saiyan Blue stand with the various Kaiōken Blue levels?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#66945: Oct 25th 2017 at 7:24:41 AM

It's what I've said for a while, the humans don't need to be as strong as a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan Blue to be play a relevant part in the story, just be as strong as a Saiyan.

Well, that doesn't make sense, because they all became much stronger than you're average Saiyan a long time ago. And "Super Saiyan" and likely Blue aren't set power levels.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#66946: Oct 25th 2017 at 7:27:25 AM

The current base Saiyans, base Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale, are who I was talking about, specifically, since they all seem to be around the same range of power.

In terms of Mastered Blue vs Kaioken, I'd say Kaiokenx10. It seems a fair comparison to make, since fresh Blue was 10 times stronger than tired Blue Vegeta in the U6 arc.

edited 25th Oct '17 7:29:34 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#66947: Oct 25th 2017 at 7:32:30 AM

Yeah, I'm still seeing issues with that. But I'm not the one talk about the issues with your number assumptions. At least not right now, maybe later.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#66948: Oct 25th 2017 at 7:38:56 AM

It's not like the manga makes any sense with Power Levels either way. It has base Black be stronger than Mastered SS2 Trunks, who is comparable to SS3 Goku, then it has SS2 Vegeta be stronger than SS2 Black, which would mean that manga Vegeta is over 400 times stronger than manga Goku.

At least with the anime I have Saiyan Beyond God to explain away plotholes, but the above is just inexcusably bad writing.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#66949: Oct 25th 2017 at 7:41:36 AM

Or Vegeta's got his own rage/"mastered" Super Saiyan 2 form like Trunks, in-line with his performance in Battle of Gods.

But I agree, that definitely stuck out as really odd to me (though I have no expectation that the SEG multipliers would be used) when reading it.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#66950: Oct 25th 2017 at 7:42:50 AM

I didn't bring up the manga (Super or original) so I don't know what point you think that's making.

Going one thing doesn't make sense doesn't somehow mean that something else does. Especially when your idea of Saiyan Beyond God isn't anywhere near fully accepted as you make it out to be.

edited 25th Oct '17 7:44:39 AM by LSBK


Total posts: 130,800
Top