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TwistedGear Don't know how to pilot this thing Since: Jun, 2014
Don't know how to pilot this thing
#66851: Oct 24th 2017 at 12:29:03 PM

I'm still not convinced that universe 1's supreme kai is male either....

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#66852: Oct 24th 2017 at 12:41:44 PM

It is true that Goku and company beating up every big time threat in the galaxy has shrunk the universe a bit, in addition to all the genociding dickholes genociding things, and Shin doing little to fix it.

There's a few things that make the universe small. The most recent being that the confirmation that there's only, like, a couple dozen inhabited planets in Universe 7.

The most obvious being that Freeza, from Namek, is explicitly the strongest person in the universe outside of the main cast. Toriyama's never abandoned that idea, with every new threat being some kind of reasonable caveat to that. But we've exhausted so many caveats for Universe 7 that continuing to introduce them would feel cheap, and that's the reason why nowadays the threats have shifted from mortals to gods (though Goku is also rapidly reaching a point where nobody in the multiverse can challenge him at all beyond Gods of Destruction and Zen-o, but that's a problem for another conversation).

That wouldn't specifically change if everyone in the participating universe's comes to Universe 7 (since if Universe 7 wins, that means their strongest guy is the strongest in all the participating universes anyway), but it would increase their options. In part because it lets them introduce new whatever ideas that were once alien to Universe 7 that they can think of (sometimes if you can't go stronger, it works to go stranger), and also because it works both ways: Jiren and Toppo are the only people who can challenge Goku in the tournament, but at the same time Goku and Vegeta (and maybe Gohan, depending on what this arc does with him) are the only people who can challenge the top level combatants from the other universe's anyway.

It's a lot easier to make a reason for Goku and Vegeta be absent from the plot or unable to fight for a while (Dragonball's been doing it for years), then to try to either sell a plot where someone at Freeza's level is somehow a threat or continually make excuses for why this new bad guy is an exception to the rule. It basically lets them continue to have their cake and eat it without having to make (as many) excuses.

That said, the endgame of this is still going to the four universes who didn't participate in the tournament, because those are total unknowns and Toriyama could far more easily have each of them have people far stronger than Jiren and Goku if he wanted to.

edited 24th Oct '17 12:43:52 PM by KnownUnknown

TwistedGear Don't know how to pilot this thing Since: Jun, 2014
Don't know how to pilot this thing
#66853: Oct 24th 2017 at 1:00:51 PM

I know it's been dragonballs thing since almost the begining, but do we really need to have every antaganist be way stronger when the final fights are almost always one on one? Ultra instict is cool and all, but it's putting goku too far ahead everyone else again and I'd like to see more plots where the villians PLAN is the big hurdle to overcome, and their power is just enough to keep everyone but the top teir fighters at bay. L Ike Zamasu and Goku Blacks combination of goku level power and imortality.

edited 24th Oct '17 1:01:56 PM by TwistedGear

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#66854: Oct 24th 2017 at 1:14:47 PM

Yeah, I've heard this point before but making something out to be "the strongest ever" is inherently limiting your world-building.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#66855: Oct 24th 2017 at 1:36:45 PM

Limits aren't always a bad thing.

I'm glad he decided to limit 'strongest in the universe' early on so that they didn't just keep tossing out increasingly powerful aliens who were just there, in space, unknown before now. Especially when Goku and co know gods and overseers who should know these things.

See: many EU Dragon Ball materials.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#66856: Oct 24th 2017 at 1:42:46 PM

So far, Universe 5 has had a Kaioshin and an Angel that were either gender-ambiguous or deliberately misleading. INB4 Arak is a woman.

edited 24th Oct '17 1:43:10 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#66857: Oct 24th 2017 at 2:13:08 PM

Establishing hard limits in a series all about change is only really a problem for the worldbuilding of the series if you intend to continue building that world for a long time afterwards. And while those stories were very long in comparison to what came before, in terms of number of arcs Dragonball didn't really have many stories after Freeza. The next big threat are explicitly exceptional inventions that use the data (and later the outright "DNA") of the previous threats. The next threat after that a magical monster that explicitly threatens the gods themselves, and isn't mortal. And then it's over, so it all worked pretty well.

But Super is having a problem with it because... well... now it's intending to continue to the story and keep continuing it (with the same formula as before) where Toriyama wasn't initially intending to go on that way for so long. It's the kind of thing most continuations have to go through, but the way Super has been handling it hasn't been stellar in the past.

Their handling of stuff like that is also something I've been wondering about in regards to End Of Z, mostly because I think it's inevitable that Super is going to end up trying to retcon it in some way.

edited 24th Oct '17 2:14:56 PM by KnownUnknown

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#66858: Oct 24th 2017 at 2:32:29 PM

I should have made my thoughts more thorough but yeah you went over why it could be a problem when I didn't.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#66859: Oct 24th 2017 at 2:48:56 PM

I'm still really curious how the hell they're going to pull off End of Z.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#66860: Oct 24th 2017 at 2:55:44 PM

Earth is in a different universe...

A universe that doesn't allow mortals to have a God forms...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#66861: Oct 24th 2017 at 3:13:43 PM

Not sure why they'd have to retcon End of Z a ton. I think they'll probably downplay Uub (and possibly ignore the whole "leaving everyone to train him" thing which wouldn't be a huge loss anyway) but so long as they're not afraid of aging up Goten and Trunks, it should be fine.

This song needs more love.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#66862: Oct 24th 2017 at 3:15:11 PM

I'd like if Uub joined the cast.

He'd provide that young amateur fighter POV that mesh well with Goku & Vegeta's more experienced selves.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#66863: Oct 24th 2017 at 4:39:33 PM

I feel like a good way to handle Super would have been to have Goku and Vegeta leave to do God stuff with Whis while the Earthlings had enemies on par with them show up to threaten the peace. That way you could still have Majin Buu-tier enemies for the cast to work towards while Goku and Vegeta fight stronger guys.

I might be in the minority on that one, though.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#66864: Oct 24th 2017 at 4:52:03 PM

[up] Stuff like that has been pitched in the past by fans. The problem though is since Goku, and Vegeta by extension are the viewpoint characters, say if they were to leave the Unvierse for a period, the story would still follow their exploits anyway.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#66865: Oct 24th 2017 at 4:58:00 PM

We already had that with Revival of F.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#66866: Oct 24th 2017 at 5:13:06 PM

And most people hated it too.

Also, the story has taken Goku out of the picture to focus on everyone else. That usually results in them all getting stomped because without Goku, they stand no chance at all.

Both the Saiyan Saga and Trunks' timeline have hammered that home incredibly hard, namely because the enemy that shows up is almost always Goku tier, which is a hundred tiers above the heroes.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#66867: Oct 24th 2017 at 6:16:11 PM

The issue is that when you move out the Goku/Vegeta tier, you still have the U Gohan and S Gotenks tier under it. Below that, Majin Boo. Then waaaay below that you have the SS, Piccolo and Android tier (which is a wide tier in itself) and waaaaaaaay below that, finally you have the humans.

It's not just Goku/Vegeta. There is such a massive power gap in the entire rest of the cast that trying to use all of them gets really contrived.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#66868: Oct 24th 2017 at 6:23:14 PM

[up]

[tup]

It was a bad idea to create such a huge gap...then again I think he was trying to write out some of those guys, so maybe it makes sense.

Then again, that gap has been there almost from the start with Goku being leagues ahead of most characters for the first two arcs. Roshi just barely beat him, and it wasn't until Tao that he finally met someone who could be him straight up without any fancy tricks (like Blue's psychic powers).

One Strip! One Strip!
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#66869: Oct 24th 2017 at 6:26:51 PM

Super has been trying to smoosh the gaps a bit closer together for this latest arc, so it's clear they recognize it as a problem.

edited 24th Oct '17 6:32:46 PM by Moth13

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#66870: Oct 24th 2017 at 6:27:36 PM

Doesn't mean there doing it well though.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#66871: Oct 24th 2017 at 6:29:37 PM

How could you even do it well at this point?

This song needs more love.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#66872: Oct 24th 2017 at 6:31:05 PM

[up]x4 500% disagree on it being a bad idea to have that gap

You just need to get rid of the damn flatscans

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#66873: Oct 24th 2017 at 6:31:11 PM

The gaps haven't been closed that severely. Krillin, Tien, and Roshi are not suddenly within Goku and Vegeta's, or even Majin Buu's, realm of power. Gohan and maybe 117 have been the only cases of it.

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#66874: Oct 24th 2017 at 6:31:24 PM

[up][up][up]Invent a time machine, kill Toriyama, take his place, and rewrite Dragon Ball?

Which is another way of saying, "You can't".

edited 24th Oct '17 6:31:47 PM by MightyMatilda

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#66875: Oct 24th 2017 at 6:33:24 PM

Yeah there's no good way to do it so they've take the "shhhhhhh, don't think about it" route.


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