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mrsunshinesprinkles Forever Gorgeous from Somewhere, crying Since: Jan, 2012
Forever Gorgeous
#6601: Jun 5th 2014 at 6:20:53 AM

That one character got hit by it really bad, though. Shame, since Kaoru really is a fun gal.

Oh wait, this is the Dragon Ball thread...Time to get these rails back on the track.

I've been following the original series at a snail's pace; I'm currently at the ninja fight, in the Red Ribbon Army arc.

Oy, a Nyoi-bo up the bun-buns...That's gotta hurt.

edited 5th Jun '14 6:26:52 AM by mrsunshinesprinkles

"Curry killed the pussy hoping that I could kill the hate in you" - Curry, D. "TABOO | TA13OO." TA13OO, PH, 2018
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#6602: Jun 5th 2014 at 7:24:38 AM

The new PS4 Dragon Ball game revealed that the Buu Saga is happening.

What makes this reveal surprising isn't that the game has the Buu Saga, but that they revealed it so early. If you remember the promotion for the past few games, they almost always tend to leave Buu Saga info for last for whatever reason. Since they showed this so early, what do you guys think this game could have in store for us?

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#6603: Jun 5th 2014 at 11:43:22 AM

[up][up]Now he has a tail.

[up]GT Saga

edited 5th Jun '14 11:43:43 AM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#6604: Jun 5th 2014 at 1:47:55 PM

So....you have no counter-argument? Because I can think of at least two instances when Kagome severely hurt Naraku. You might remember Kagome is Living Kryptonite and she was in fact the first person to seriously injure him. Then she destroyed both him and the Shikon jewel in the finale.

It's not that. It's just that defeating Naraku at the end doesn't make Kagome's combat effectiveness anywhere close to Sango's.

nd now you're just being ludicrous. BULMA? That is your grand defense of DB women in comparison to kagome,

Yes. Because Bulma. Is a MILF. And not just a MILF, but a brainy MILF. With blue hair.

Kagome choosing to stay with the man she loved in the past is a bad thing but you're supporting a women who was like "fuck Krillin and my old freinds, look how handsome that Zarbon fellow is." Bulma is walking, talking Sexism. She's smart and funny yes but a good character she is not.

Non-action, bitchy female protagonist ends character development abandoning her family =/= Non-action, bitchy female protagonist has a crush on Zarbon mid-saga.

Bulma is important early on, not because she's the reincarnation of a priestess and receives spiritual powers from it. She goes from whiny teenage girl who wants a boyfriend to genius inventor, space traveler, billionaire, philanthropist - she even built a time machine that averted a Bad Future.

Did Kagome build a time machine and save the world? -sticks tongue out- I think not.

edited 5th Jun '14 1:52:23 PM by FOFD

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#6605: Jun 5th 2014 at 2:02:46 PM

[up]IN A CAVE, WITH A BOX OF SCR-*bricked*

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#6606: Jun 5th 2014 at 2:14:04 PM

TLDR: Bulma is important for what she does, not just because she exists. She has agency within the plot, driving it by her choices and actions.

edited 5th Jun '14 2:14:49 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#6607: Jun 5th 2014 at 2:31:43 PM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#6608: Jun 5th 2014 at 2:39:36 PM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#6609: Jun 5th 2014 at 2:44:56 PM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#6611: Jun 5th 2014 at 5:43:05 PM

I'll just have to refute everything again...how boring.

"It's not that. It's just that defeating Naraku at the end doesn't make Kagome's combat effectiveness anywhere close to Sango's."

I guess you ignored me saying she was the first person to really hurt Naraku. Also, FYI, Sango NEVER hurt Naraku before she got a powerup about 3/4 through the manga. She hurt fodder but she never was useful against the Big Bad at all.

"Yes. Because Bulma. Is a MILF. And not just a MILF, but a brainy MILF. With blue hair."

She is brainy when the plot needs her to be and no other time.

"Non-action, bitchy female protagonist ends character development abandoning her family =/= Non-action, bitchy female protagonist has a crush on Zarbon mid-saga.

Except calling Kagome "non-action" is objectively wrong. She has been critical in more fights than Android 18 or Videl or Chi-Chi or any other DB/Z female. Hell, if you add up every fight Eighteen and the rest were in, it still wouldn't even equal half the battle sKagome helped in. She was a great archer and had tremendous spiritual power.

"Bulma is important early on, not because she's the reincarnation of a priestess and receives spiritual powers from it."

Please note Kagome is stronger than Kikyo because she was nobler than Kikyo.

"She goes from whiny teenage girl who wants a boyfriend to genius inventor, space traveler, billionaire, philanthropist - she even built a time machine that averted a Bad Future."

...you realize she's the heir to Capsule Corps? She didn't become a billionaire because was already WAS a billionaire due to family money. Actually, did any of her inventions ever procure profit?

Kagome was an ordinary schoolgirl, not a priveleged brat, who found herself in a hostile environment and had to deal with it. Unlike the gag series of DB, the demons of Inuyasha are not as cute and fun as the dinosaurs and creatures in DB. Kagome had to deal with villages and massacres on a nearly daily basis. She had to overcome the harsh realities of not only Feudal Japan but Feudal Japan in a fantasy setting. In spite of all the horror she witnessed, in spite of her own personal troubles with being a teenager, she overcame it all and managed to maintain a pure heart that wanted for nothing but to help the one she loved.

What you fail to understand is that you don't have to be as good of a character as Kagome is to be better than the DB females. I don't think I've seen a single shounen that is worse to women than DB. Even Rurouni Kenshin is better because Misao is pretty cool and it also had Sayo in the filler. But other than that - Naruto, Bleach. Fairy Tail, Yu Yu Hakusho....all thoroughly stomp DB in treatment of the female characters.

edited 5th Jun '14 5:49:56 PM by Nikkolas

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6612: Jun 5th 2014 at 6:40:10 PM

[up]

Naruto, Bleach and Fairy Tail treat they're female cast way worse than Dragon Ball does.

In Naruto, the first female major character in Naruto becomes Hokage and arguably the worst Hokage ever because of how incompetent she is at her job. And the other major female character (Sakura) is a Faux Action Girl Up To Eleven. Every other female character is either Cannon Fodder or become Out of Focus very quickly. Kurenai is the most tragic example, she gets hyped about having genjustu on the level of Itachi, but ends up getting curbstomped by her own genjustu! She gets pregnant later and is never heard of again.

Bleach is even worse. This is mainly due to that fact that if you're not Ichigo you're dispensable. I don't think a female fight has ever won a fight in the manga. The filler may say different but even then I don't remember that happening in the anime either.

Fairy Tail... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... Mary Sues all over the place.

Yu Yu Hakusho actually handles it female characters pretty well so I'll give you that. But only Genkai and Mukuro ever really played a significant role to be honest. Every other female character was just... there.

edited 6th Jun '14 4:36:15 AM by FireShadow

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#6614: Jun 5th 2014 at 7:36:40 PM

[up][up] For Naruto, there were several strong Kunoichi, they just aren't as strong as the men. Apart from Tsunade and Sakura there was also Chiyo and Mei and some others. But ya know, naruto kinda sucks so I'll just concede that one.

For Bleach though, we have Yoruichi who beat Soifon, Rangiku who beat that one other Lieutenant in the SS Arc.Harribel was kicking the crap out of Hitsugaya. And there were probably others. Nel not beating Nnoitra was totally bogus however.

As for FT, I dont believe in Mary Sues. I judge a character if they are interesting and that's all that matters to me. And for this particular discussion, FT has a prolific cast of powerful females. Lucy contributed more to fights than any women in DB or Z, Erza herself was actually stronger than the main character for a good chunk of the series, then there's also Ultear who is pretty badass, and probably more I'm not even aware of since I'm not even passed the timeskip in FT. Oh and Ikaruga, a woman, was the strongest member of Trinity Raven.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#6615: Jun 5th 2014 at 8:47:27 PM

Okay, judging by the three thumps, I'm going to sever that line of debate and just say, "You win," and I'll drop the "Must win" attitude I seem to have going on here. So, we can get back to talking about Dragon Ball. (And how f-cking awesome Bulma was even as a teenager).

But I see that Naruto, Bleach, Fairy Tail, and Yu Yu Hakusho have come up, and while I'd love to speak for the first and the last of those, continue on.

edited 5th Jun '14 8:56:01 PM by FOFD

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#6616: Jun 6th 2014 at 4:33:09 AM

[up] To paraphrase Gilphon, Majestic Lord of the Morning and Grand High Sun King, you don't win an argument by convincing the other party. You win when you convince the audience. And I, for one, agree with your latest post on Bulma. I never really cared for her much until recently but now I think she's an absolutely great character with some of the most organic character development in the series (and never really losing her immature streak, just showing it more appropriately - like with Idasa's mum).

@Fire Shadow You really shouldn't talk so strongly about Bleach if you don't actually know much about the series:

Orihime beat Numb Chandelier.
Yoruichi beat Soifon.
Rangiku beat Kira and Nakeem.
Rukia beat Di Roy, Runuganga, Aaroniero, Rudbornn, and As Nodt
Soifon beat Ggio Vega and BG 9
Mashiro beat Hooleer
Unohana beat child Kenpachi, and beat adult Kenpachi multiple times
Bambietta beat Shinji Candice, Meninas, Giselle and Liltotto beat Kenpachi.

Those are just from the manga, and I might have missed some, but I really have to question what you've actually read or seen of Bleach if you couldn't recall a single one of these.

Bleach is far better in its treatment of female characters than Naruto is, in fact I don't think anything I've read is worse than Naruto. It beats RK out in sexism because it hits all females with it, and one villain outright says that women are weak - which would be fine for a villain since they're supposed to be bad and wrong but he then proceeds to easily defeat the woman he's fighting and basically proves himself right.

I don't see anything Naruto does well with its females at all. Sakura's recent developments in the current arc speaks volumes of this. Kishimoto gives her a power up and has her say about how she won't be staring at Naruto and Sasuke's backs anymore... and immediately needs to be saved by them when she turns her back to the enemy to look at them. And then later, she gets ANOTHER power up... and realizes she's still nothing to the villain, but decides to rush him anyway to give Naruto and Sasuke an opening. Then she's impaled and has to be saved, realizing that she didn't help even as a distraction. And then Sasuke points out how useless she is, and tells her to stop trying. So currently she's just watching Naruto and Sasuke's. Literally.

Naruto might have more females with superpowers, but power alone isn't good treatment. They are simply nowhere near the high end of the power scale anyway, save for Kaguya. At this point of the story Kage level means nothing, and even when it did Tsunade did nothing notable save for her introduction where she spent most of it being scared shitless.

edited 6th Jun '14 5:02:36 AM by Saiga

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6617: Jun 6th 2014 at 5:33:45 AM

[up] I should have been more clear about the situation regarding Bleach. I only read up to about chapter 20 before becoming no longer interested and dropping it completely. I'd come to read a few chapters every now and again but I haven't read all of it. Probably at most 100 chapters scattered across several arcs. Probably not a fair assessment in my own admission.

But I'm glad we're at least on the same page about Naruto... yeesshh! If you can't write a good female character Kishimoto, don't bother doing it.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#6618: Jun 6th 2014 at 6:58:09 AM

He did in his Mario Oneshot, actually.

Watch Symphogear
AfroWarrior27 Since: Apr, 2013
#6619: Jun 6th 2014 at 7:37:26 AM

What gives FMA the feminist empowerment label, IMO, is how natural it is, with genders. It doesn't shoehorn walking fanservice, or forced faux action girls; the girls here are characters. The action ones don't kick ass to balance the scales, that's just how they roll. As for the girls that don't do much fighting? They contribute in their own ways. Hell, you don't have to be a big fighter to be important.

It helps that the author of FMA is female. Not saying that male can't write good female though, Hayao Miyazaki can very much prove that to be false. But it seems for mainstream shonen that's a problem.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6620: Jun 6th 2014 at 9:01:03 AM

This has been a very productive and intriguing discussion about the issue of gender within Shonen manga but is it possible if we move back to Dragon Ball? tongue

There's something that I've realized in regard to the final battle against Kid Buu. If Goku had opted to save his sons and leave Dende and Hercule behind, they would have been royally screwed. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Dende the last Namekian to be told what the password that was required for Porunga to grant wishes? If he dies they can't use the Namekian Dragon Balls for anything and because he's also guardian of Earth, his death means the Earth Dragon Balls are also gone forever because he's the only one who can resurrect Shenron and restore the Dragon Balls.

So imagine all the Z Figters defeating Kid Bu in grand fashion only to find out they can't bring back anyone to life and they are essentially stuck on the Sacred World of the Kais forever.

That is spine chilling and borders on a Downer Ending

edited 6th Jun '14 9:08:16 AM by FireShadow

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#6621: Jun 6th 2014 at 9:05:14 AM

I'm going to assume that there are other Namekians who can summon Porunga. At the very least, whoever replaced Guru should be able to do it. If the only Namekian who can summon Porunga is on another planet entirely, that would be an incredibly incompetent way of going about things.

They still would have been screwed, but they would have been screwed for lack of Hercule, not Dende.

edited 6th Jun '14 9:05:33 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6622: Jun 6th 2014 at 9:12:55 AM

[up] Summoning Porunga is one thing but actually granting wishes is a whole different area. I'm sure any Namekian can summon Porunga but as far we know only one Namekian (Dende) can actually get Porunga to grant wishes.

If Dende was left die on Earth = No Namekian Dragon Ball or Earth Dragon Balls = No one can be brought back to life = Downer Ending

edited 6th Jun '14 9:15:45 AM by FireShadow

ScorpioRat from Houston, Texas Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Forming Voltron
#6623: Jun 6th 2014 at 9:16:30 AM

I thought you just had to speak Namekian to talk to Porunga, which is why Dende was needed in the Freeza arc. The other Namekians weren't available at the time.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#6624: Jun 6th 2014 at 9:19:23 AM

Yeah. The hard part is knowing how to summon him. Anyone should be able to request a wish once he's summoned. Dende won the Wish-Off against Frieza and Vegeta because he was the only one speaking Namekian at the time; I don't think it was ever said that Dende is the only person who Porunga will ever grant a wish for.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6625: Jun 6th 2014 at 9:27:00 AM

[up] If that wasn't the case then why didn't any other Namek simply summon Porunga and make the very same wishes that Goku, Kibito Kai and Dende had agreed upon. Remember, they specifically stated in the manga they already knew about the scenario and had gathered the Namekian Dragon Balls before Kibito Kai and Dende got the Namek. So if that was the case why didn't they already summon and grant the wishes themselves? I'll tell you why... because nobody other than Dende knew the bloody password!

It was the same scenario on Earth, even when every Namekian remaining, which was a lot of them, was around for the wishes to be granted, it was Dende who summoned Porunga and Dende was the one who spoke the password. Nobody else stepped forward, because they didn't know how to do it. And for the record this took after a new Grand Elder Namek had been appointed.

edited 6th Jun '14 9:32:21 AM by FireShadow


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