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Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#6576: Jun 3rd 2014 at 10:40:41 AM

I could have sworn he contemplated making Pan a Super Saiyan when she first appeared at the end of the series but rejected the idea.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#6577: Jun 3rd 2014 at 10:56:48 AM

When she first appeared at the end of the series, she was, like, 2 years old. That would have been even more ridiculous than Goten and Trunks.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#6578: Jun 3rd 2014 at 11:10:48 AM

Yes it would have been but Super Saiyan had no value by that point anyway so why not.

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#6579: Jun 3rd 2014 at 11:24:53 AM

[up][up]Pan was 4. There's some timeline discrepancies with her age compared to Bulla's.

Unpopular opinions time:

1. I don't care for pre-Tenshinhan Dragonball (except for the RRA theme. It's boss as fudge).

2. I love the overly-long charge times in original dragonball. They really gave a sense of "oh shit, this is gonna be epic once it goes off." Vegeta charging his final flash for one whole episode made me eager to see the next one, and it was literally the only thing on my mind the next day at school (the wait for the episode after was perhaps the longest day of my life), and Goku going to Super saiyan 3 against Buu was equally epic.

That said, I can see why people don't like them. Slows the narrative to a crawl, but to say they're completely, irredeemably bad is wrong, I feel.


It was great that Kagome was a complete bitch to Inuyasha and constantly needed saving and protecting? Sango, I'll give you, but not Kagome. Lol.

Dragonball is a Martial Arts story. Martial Artists are mostly men. It's also a boy's manga. There's no real reason to shoehorn in a female cast, yet Toriyama managed to work them in organically. He makes no pretension that they can contribute to the battles, but he still finds ways for them to be useful.

edited 3rd Jun '14 11:29:40 AM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#6580: Jun 3rd 2014 at 11:49:47 AM

I take it you watched the first...twenty episodes of Inuyasha and stopped there. Because Kagome was never a "bitch" to Inuyasha. She was wounded and overemotional about his constantly flirting with another woman, and kinda-sorta picking that woman over Kagome at one point, but she very seldom had undeserved bouts of anger or frustration with him. Inuyasha was a thousand times the bitch that Kagome ever was.

Plus even for when she was being mean for unjustified reasons, we have to remember Kagome is a teenager. Irrational outbursts of emotion or selfishness is realistic characterization.

Also when it comes to her combat usefulness, it was ultimately Kagome who defeated Naraku and saved the world so.... She was much more useful in fighting than Sango for a good while.

Kagome is better developed and written than every DB female combined.

edited 3rd Jun '14 11:56:31 AM by Nikkolas

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#6581: Jun 3rd 2014 at 12:20:09 PM

Dragonball is a Martial Arts story. Martial Artists are mostly men.

See, you pretty thoroughly lost me here.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
RandomGuy96 Since: Apr, 2014
#6582: Jun 3rd 2014 at 12:44:02 PM

I like Pan

edited 3rd Jun '14 12:58:36 PM by RandomGuy96

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#6583: Jun 3rd 2014 at 12:57:42 PM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#6584: Jun 3rd 2014 at 1:05:25 PM

Pan was one of the few things I legitimately liked about GT. She had a cool design, a lot of heart, and she truly felt like a mixture of a young Goku and Mr. Satan. (a genuine love of fighting and a huge cocky streak)

DoctorDiabolical So pure. Since: Mar, 2010
So pure.
#6585: Jun 3rd 2014 at 1:07:32 PM

[up] x6 A fantasy martial arts manga. In fantasy, anyone can be anything so long as the author wills it. Also, it being a boys' manga is not an excuse. Unfortunate life's truth that most boys' manga sidelines females, maybe, but no excuse tongue.

edited 3rd Jun '14 1:09:02 PM by DoctorDiabolical

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#6586: Jun 4th 2014 at 6:08:07 AM

Which is a why a Pretty Cure crossover with this series would be a amazing, because it would have the female characters kick just as much ass as the guys do. Without giving them the Worf Effect like with the female characters from Dragon Ball.

Hell, I think Toriyama is amongst the authors that likes pretty cure too (With Oda trying to outrival it cause his daughter likes it more thenb One Piece).

edited 4th Jun '14 6:09:35 AM by Demongodofchaos2

Watch Symphogear
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#6587: Jun 4th 2014 at 8:43:56 AM

And you (yes you) lost me here:

take it you watched the first...twenty episodes of Inuyasha and stopped there. Because Kagome was never a "bitch" to Inuyasha.

Because I'm pretty sure it was a Running Gag for Kagome to force Inuyasha to bash his head into the ground upon a single verbal command, which she could activate anytime he so much as annoyed her. It made sense early on because Inuyasha didn't care about her wellbeing at all. And of course there's the typical, Accidental Pervert situations they end up in that fall entirely on Inuyasha.

Inuyasha was a thousand times the bitch that Kagome ever was.

I would say he's more of an ass. But Kagome is totally a bitch seventy percent of the time. That's why they fit together.

Plus even for when she was being mean for unjustified reasons, we have to remember Kagome is a teenager. Irrational outbursts of emotion or selfishness is realistic characterization.

Not to the extent I remember Kagome being. Normally I'd give you that one, but she was bitchy at times. That's different from her never being a bitch at all.

How many times have I typed 'bitch' in this post? Have a strange urge to watch Breaking Bad all of a sudden.

Also when it comes to her combat usefulness, it was ultimately Kagome who defeated Naraku and saved the world so.... She was much more useful in fighting than Sango for a good while.

I'm... I'm not even going to dignify that with an argumentative response.

Kagome is better developed and written than every DB female combined.

Ha ha, no.

Trips and falls into Feudal Japan -> Becomes the object of attention for ancient dog demon -> Gets perved on by priest -> Realizes she's the reincarnation of an interesting character ->Gets magic spirit arrows -> Becomes Inuyasha's waifu but neither will admit it -> Defeats Naraku -> Inu Kago Good End ->Abandons her family to live with hubby.

Bulma: created a device to detect magical, wish-granting, reality-warping balls from another planet, was Goku's stalwart companion and the 'brains' of the outfit, admittedly was getting rescued most of the time (like Kagome before her priestess power-up, and even then), and managed to stay relevant throughout most of Dragonball until the Cell arc, despite being a supporting character.

Chi-Chi: ...well, her son became a goddamn genius through homeschooling, high school, and college, so that's something.

Videl: Learned how to fly. The Determinator.

Fasha: Killed by Dodoria.

Gine: Bardock's wife, makes the best Saiyan Samwiches in the whole damn universe.

Launch: ...we'll skip Launch for now.

Android 18: Kicked the shit out of Vegeta, then got eaten by Cell, making him the most powerful fighter on the show at that time.

Huh.

Well, Bulma and 18 are better at least.

edited 4th Jun '14 8:49:54 AM by FOFD

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#6588: Jun 4th 2014 at 9:25:38 AM

"I'm... I'm not even going to dignify that with an argumentative response."

So....you have no counter-argument? Because I can think of at least two instances when Kagome severely hurt Naraku. You might remember Kagome is Living Kryptonite and she was in fact the first person to seriously injure him. Then she destroyed both him and the Shikon jewel in the finale.

Sango's boomerang gets a nice upgrade true but she never pout the hurting n Naraku like Kagome did because she's just a badass human while Kagome is the anti-Naraku more or less.

Also there was that early Monster of the Week bit where Kagome made an improvised flamethrower. Always gonna love that.

And now you're just being ludicrous. BULMA? That is your grand defense of DB women in comparison to kagome, BULMA?

Yes truly she is a heroine of the masses and by masses I mean boobs because that's pretty much all she was. Tits, ass, vagina, and certainly nothing resembling a brain when it came to certain things. "HI ALIEN MURDERER, WILL YOU FUCK ME?"

Kagome choosing to stay with the man she loved in the past is a bad thing but you're supporting a women who was like "fuck Krillin and my old freinds, look how handsome that Zarbon fellow is."

Bulma is walking, talking Sexism. She's smart and funny yes but a good character she is not.

"Chi-Chi: ...well, her son became a goddamn genius through homeschooling, high school, and college, so that's something."

You realize you are actually destroying your own argument for me, right?

"Videl: Learned how to fly. The Determinator."

Kagome had her soul stolen at one point and still managed to overcome that to help Inuyasha and them. I also felt the episode where the Infant found the fleck of darkness in her heart, the jealousy of Kikyo, followed up by the episode where only she could save Kikyo, was very powerful and telling that Kagome is a very strong but flawed young woman.

"Android 18: Kicked the shit out of Vegeta, then got eaten by Cell, making him the most powerful fighter on the show at that time."

She would go on to be utterly useless after that fight with Vegeta, to the extent that two little shitheads could easily beat her. FYI, Kagome was easily Top 5, MAYBE Top 10. strongest at the end of Inuyasha. Eighteen be lucky to make Top 20 if we count varying forms.

Let's see.... Mystic Gohan, Super Buu, SSJ 3 Goku, Kid Buu, Fat Buu, Mr. Buu, SSJ 2 Vegeta, Dabura, Piccolo, Cell, Goten, Trunks... So if I cut out Fusions and more minor versions of Buu, she makes Top 15.

edited 4th Jun '14 9:35:37 AM by Nikkolas

bobdude The most Bobing of Dudes Since: Oct, 2012
The most Bobing of Dudes
#6589: Jun 4th 2014 at 1:46:30 PM

If I might butt in, I always thought that Blonde Lunch would make the best GTA protagonist ever myself. Anyone else agree? *goes back into the shadows*

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#6590: Jun 4th 2014 at 2:44:13 PM

I guess it even stretches into DBO. Humans are the only playable race with balanced females — the other two are different.

With Majin females, Buu based the first one on a character from a porn novel for goodness sakes, which explains why they look like Green Skinned Space Babes rather than... well, Buu. That said, since they're an entire customizable race, individual characterzation can be a saving grace for them.

Namekians, must I even say it?

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
AfroWarrior27 Since: Apr, 2013
#6592: Jun 4th 2014 at 7:16:33 PM

But I've said it before and I'll say it again, women always get dealt a lousy hand if they're are a character in a Shonen anime or manga.

Oh, Full Metal Alchemist would like to have a word with you then.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#6593: Jun 4th 2014 at 7:25:13 PM
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#6594: Jun 4th 2014 at 8:05:55 PM

If we count some mecha as shounen, there's also Gundam Wing.

edited 4th Jun '14 8:06:22 PM by Nikkolas

RandomGuy96 Since: Apr, 2014
#6595: Jun 4th 2014 at 11:43:30 PM

[up][up]What's so great about the female characters in FMA?

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#6596: Jun 5th 2014 at 12:42:21 AM

Well in the FMA anime, women are the second and third strongest Alchemists. (Dante and Izumi) They're also very independent and intelligent.

edited 5th Jun '14 12:42:52 AM by Nikkolas

RandomGuy96 Since: Apr, 2014
#6597: Jun 5th 2014 at 3:45:50 AM

Well that is true, but I always see the show praised as some female empowerment show when I didn't pick up on that at all.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#6598: Jun 5th 2014 at 4:06:57 AM

You're not alone in that Random. I read the manga and watched Brotherhood instead the first anime though.

Anywho, I don't agree with the reasoning that having predominantly men fighting is more realistic. Especially not after reading Rurouni Kenshin, a blatantly sexist series that is often given this excuse. It doesn't work because this series allows a 12 year old boy to get his own fights and tag along while the female master of her own school is made to stay back. And Dragon Ball also has children fight, so there's nothing realistic about the choice of fighters or anything like that.

That said I don't think a lack of female fighters is sexist, and I believe that you can't determine that from the number of female fighters present or absent.

mrsunshinesprinkles Forever Gorgeous from Somewhere, crying Since: Jan, 2012
Forever Gorgeous
#6599: Jun 5th 2014 at 5:47:36 AM

[up]That really was RK's only glaring fault, but boy it's glaring.

What gives FMA the feminist empowerment label, IMO, is how natural it is, with genders. It doesn't shoehorn walking fanservice, or forced faux action girls; the girls here are characters. The action ones don't kick ass to balance the scales, that's just how they roll. As for the girls that don't do much fighting? They contribute in their own ways. Hell, you don't have to be a big fighter to be important.

Personally, a lack of vaginas in the big boy fights don't bother me much. Just because most of the fighters are male, and a good deal of the females are non-action oriented, that doesn't mean they're making an anti-female statement. And a main-female doesn't have to be a main presence in a battle to be a good character. What gets the gears grinding is when the sexism is painfully blatant, or if there are action-oriented females, but they feel like they're added out of obligation, and nothing else. The kind of female who's said to be badass, yet is just...Kind of in the background, just to add a false balance.

Same goes for the opposite extreme; if there was an action series with a huge vagina concentreation, a lack of a male presence in the battles doesn't bother me, as long as the series doesn't directly deride the sausage, or introduces male fighters that don't win shit.

edited 5th Jun '14 6:02:14 AM by mrsunshinesprinkles

"Curry killed the pussy hoping that I could kill the hate in you" - Curry, D. "TABOO | TA13OO." TA13OO, PH, 2018
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#6600: Jun 5th 2014 at 6:13:32 AM

That's true, there's nothing worse than when an author can't write females worth a damn, but insists on adding them to the cast(*cough* Naruto*cough*)

To be fair to Rurouni though, the sexism was mostly centered around one character, everyone other female either had roles unsuited for fighting, or weren't that prominent to begin with.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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