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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#65351: Oct 3rd 2017 at 3:47:21 PM

Naw, it's always a good idea to be a contrarian.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#65352: Oct 3rd 2017 at 4:03:01 PM

[up] Except when it isn't.

"Mai waifu."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#65353: Oct 3rd 2017 at 4:05:01 PM

Over at Tokyo Ghoul there has been a lot of subversion's & all its done is gimp the fight scenes & make shit generally anticlimactic as Hell.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#65354: Oct 3rd 2017 at 4:08:17 PM

At what point do subversions become so predictable that they stop being subversions?

This song needs more love.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#65355: Oct 3rd 2017 at 4:10:59 PM

When they become part of the series formula.

Justin_Brett Since: Jun, 2010
#65356: Oct 3rd 2017 at 4:28:46 PM

If Brianne's meant to be a thug I think it's just in the same way Android 17 was when he first appeared: not really a bad person, just kind of arrogant since they happen to be very powerful. I actually didn't notice they had similar eyes until they interacted, which was subtle.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#65357: Oct 3rd 2017 at 4:31:15 PM

Pretty much.

We constantly joke about how we know to expect nothing out of the humans, and how everyone else will take their shots, get beat and then be forced to stand around while Goku does everything...

Hell, even Goku failing to beat the main bad guy is something we've actually come to expect these days, because as some people have pointed out, the last fights he definitively won in Z were against Frieza (who still survived) and Yakon.

Even in Super, his only big victory could be said to be Botamo (Golden Frieza kinda counts too I guess, but that was after he screwed up and let him destroy the earth).

I got no problem with someone proving me wrong on this though.

One Strip! One Strip!
Larfleeze Agent Orange Since: May, 2009
Agent Orange
#65358: Oct 3rd 2017 at 4:35:45 PM

[up][up]Aka "The Fairy Tail" effect.

"Gosh Ezra's been decapitated and had her body burned to ash and her opponent has powered up to become stronger than every other fictional character combined! How can she hope to win against such horrific odds?!

Oh she just wins."

It's like the author was so desperate to avoid the usual 'strong character loses so main character can look better when they win' trope that he never understood how predictable it got.

Like the first time she wins when she shouldn't thematically it was actually cool. But every arc had the same trick and it got old fast. Anticlimax again and again.

edited 3rd Oct '17 4:38:51 PM by Larfleeze

Do you know what people want the most? Something somebody else has.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#65359: Oct 3rd 2017 at 4:51:44 PM

That's not just Erza.

Natsu did that as well, but we're not here to talk about Fairy Tail.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#65360: Oct 3rd 2017 at 5:06:41 PM

Natsu doing it isn't an attempt at being subversive, though.

The real problem with trying to be subversive is when it leads to setting up binary sutuations where the subversive route is equally obvious.

Like when Vegeta takes over Goku's fight with Freeza. At that point, we're presented with a binary choice: either Vegeta wins or he doesn't. The mystery of it was given a lot of hype, but having a reputation or subversion and narrowing it down to two options meant half the people guessed how it would go and the other half were still aware of the possibility.

Vegeta winning would be considered subversive, but because of the existing reputation people saw that coming. And trying to subvert that expectation just makes it look identical to non-subversive works.

If Toriyama truly wants to be subverisive, he needs to stop presenting things in such binary situations and inject some variety in the work. It's reached the point where the most surprising thing is when he doesn't jerk around with expectations.

edited 3rd Oct '17 5:06:56 PM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#65361: Oct 3rd 2017 at 5:08:46 PM

If Toriyama truly wants to be subverisive, he needs to stop presenting things in such binary situations and inject some variety in the work. It's reached the point where the most surprising thing is when he doesn't jerk around with expectations.

I'm down with that, but considering we just read that he's contrarian by nature and seems hard wired to do (or want to do) the opposite of what others want or suspect, I have a feeling that won't happen all that often.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#65362: Oct 3rd 2017 at 5:12:21 PM

[up][up] Does the Merged Zamasu deal count as a binary situation?

We assume Vegeto would take him out but unknown factors prevent him from doing so & its Future Trunks that finishes the job.

[up] Really makes ya wonder how this arcs gonna end.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#65363: Oct 3rd 2017 at 5:13:14 PM

Eh, he's done it before. For instance, though he would make a point of characters being more powerful than they appear (Freeza, etc) he'd also toss in some characters who look traditionally powerful and actually are. Without the variety, he'd get predictable and we'd take one look at Jiren and think "he's going to job".

[up] I assumed Vegetto would fail, since he had the last time as well.

I think the situation was more relevant with Trunks in the end. Giving the arc's treatment with Trunks, I was expecting the arc to attempt to 'correct' the Android arc not making him the hero. It clearly played that up, then tried to throw in a twist at the last minute.

The Trunks' arc conclusion was surprising, but not in a satisfying way. The binary situations also lead to writing yourself into a corner where the only way to be surprising is to pull something out of yo butt

edited 3rd Oct '17 5:23:08 PM by Saiga

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#65364: Oct 3rd 2017 at 5:14:43 PM

Merged Zamasu wouldn't count as a binary outcome only if you assumed Future Trunks' Hikari no Ikari Sword would somehow kill him. Most people here guessed the Zeno button would be pressed in order to kill Merged Zamasu for good, which happened.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#65365: Oct 3rd 2017 at 5:24:37 PM

Yeah, but they also guessed that Trunks would, you know, actually succeed in saving his world and all.

I mean, I don't think anyone thought the arc would end with all of his efforts being rendered moot in the end. The Spirit Sword / Sword of Hope (as much as I like it, even if it could have used a lot more set-up)made it worse in a sense.

Like I've said before, Trunk practically ass-pulled a new power (well two new powers) in an effort to save everyone, and he still lost. It's pretty unfair.

The manga makes it a bit less bad, but it's still the same result: you can't win, and everything you cared about is gone now. Fuck you Trunks.

That's some message huh?

edited 3rd Oct '17 5:27:18 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#65366: Oct 3rd 2017 at 5:26:38 PM

And people expected the Zeno button to be used because not doing so would waste the set up

[up] The very end is a surprise, mostly because it's a pointless downer

The easiest way to subvert people is to disappoint them.

edited 3rd Oct '17 5:27:56 PM by Saiga

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#65367: Oct 3rd 2017 at 5:28:00 PM

The funny part is he still gets a happy ending though. Whis magics him into an identical timeline.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#65368: Oct 3rd 2017 at 5:30:00 PM

Esoteric happy ending then.

They may try to pass it off as happy & identical but its still a copy & still a fucked up situation.

edited 3rd Oct '17 5:30:32 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#65369: Oct 3rd 2017 at 5:31:11 PM

I'd call that more of a Close-Enough Timeline really.

Plus, he still lost his mom, all his friends, and watched as everything he fought for was destroyed.

And now he's gotta share the new timeline with another version of himself.

I mean, after all he went through, I can see him saying fine, I can handle that, but I'm not sure if I'd call that very happy.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#65370: Oct 3rd 2017 at 5:31:19 PM

A really fucked up, replacement golding ending

I wonder why they stressed that Whis' ability doesn't create an alternate timeline if the characters think alternate timelines are just as good

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#65371: Oct 3rd 2017 at 5:39:15 PM

He's basically being given the prize you get for losing the contest.

Its literally a God making sure he gets something out of it & does so by making an exact copy of everyone he knew & love.

Boy is that fucked up.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#65372: Oct 3rd 2017 at 5:42:41 PM

It'd be less fucked up to just leave him with nothing and have him stick around

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#65373: Oct 3rd 2017 at 5:48:27 PM

Or give him a chance to wish back his world via the Super Dragonballs.

But then they wouldn't have been able to force Frieza in I guess.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#65374: Oct 3rd 2017 at 5:50:47 PM

I think the Super balls are too much, frankly. The regular balls are already enough to seriously dampen tension.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#65375: Oct 3rd 2017 at 5:51:27 PM

Boy the irony of being "subversive" in an attempt at not being predictable, ends up being predictable in of itself.

It's...poetic.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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