At what point do subversions become so predictable that they stop being subversions?
This song needs more love.Pretty much.
We constantly joke about how we know to expect nothing out of the humans, and how everyone else will take their shots, get beat and then be forced to stand around while Goku does everything...
Hell, even Goku failing to beat the main bad guy is something we've actually come to expect these days, because as some people have pointed out, the last fights he definitively won in Z were against Frieza (who still survived) and Yakon.
Even in Super, his only big victory could be said to be Botamo (Golden Frieza kinda counts too I guess, but that was after he screwed up and let him destroy the earth).
I got no problem with someone proving me wrong on this though.
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Aka "The Fairy Tail" effect.
"Gosh Ezra's been decapitated and had her body burned to ash and her opponent has powered up to become stronger than every other fictional character combined! How can she hope to win against such horrific odds?!
Oh she just wins."
It's like the author was so desperate to avoid the usual 'strong character loses so main character can look better when they win' trope that he never understood how predictable it got.
Like the first time she wins when she shouldn't thematically it was actually cool. But every arc had the same trick and it got old fast. Anticlimax again and again.
edited 3rd Oct '17 4:38:51 PM by Larfleeze
Do you know what people want the most? Something somebody else has.That's not just Erza.
Natsu did that as well, but we're not here to talk about Fairy Tail.
One Strip! One Strip!Natsu doing it isn't an attempt at being subversive, though.
The real problem with trying to be subversive is when it leads to setting up binary sutuations where the subversive route is equally obvious.
Like when Vegeta takes over Goku's fight with Freeza. At that point, we're presented with a binary choice: either Vegeta wins or he doesn't. The mystery of it was given a lot of hype, but having a reputation or subversion and narrowing it down to two options meant half the people guessed how it would go and the other half were still aware of the possibility.
Vegeta winning would be considered subversive, but because of the existing reputation people saw that coming. And trying to subvert that expectation just makes it look identical to non-subversive works.
If Toriyama truly wants to be subverisive, he needs to stop presenting things in such binary situations and inject some variety in the work. It's reached the point where the most surprising thing is when he doesn't jerk around with expectations.
edited 3rd Oct '17 5:06:56 PM by Saiga
I'm down with that, but considering we just read that he's contrarian by nature and seems hard wired to do (or want to do) the opposite of what others want or suspect, I have a feeling that won't happen all that often.
One Strip! One Strip!Eh, he's done it before. For instance, though he would make a point of characters being more powerful than they appear (Freeza, etc) he'd also toss in some characters who look traditionally powerful and actually are. Without the variety, he'd get predictable and we'd take one look at Jiren and think "he's going to job".
I assumed Vegetto would fail, since he had the last time as well.
I think the situation was more relevant with Trunks in the end. Giving the arc's treatment with Trunks, I was expecting the arc to attempt to 'correct' the Android arc not making him the hero. It clearly played that up, then tried to throw in a twist at the last minute.
The Trunks' arc conclusion was surprising, but not in a satisfying way. The binary situations also lead to writing yourself into a corner where the only way to be surprising is to pull something out of yo butt
edited 3rd Oct '17 5:23:08 PM by Saiga
Yeah, but they also guessed that Trunks would, you know, actually succeed in saving his world and all.
I mean, I don't think anyone thought the arc would end with all of his efforts being rendered moot in the end. The Spirit Sword / Sword of Hope (as much as I like it, even if it could have used a lot more set-up)made it worse in a sense.
Like I've said before, Trunk practically ass-pulled a new power (well two new powers) in an effort to save everyone, and he still lost. It's pretty unfair.
The manga makes it a bit less bad, but it's still the same result: you can't win, and everything you cared about is gone now. Fuck you Trunks.
That's some message huh?
edited 3rd Oct '17 5:27:18 PM by HandsomeRob
One Strip! One Strip!I'd call that more of a Close-Enough Timeline really.
Plus, he still lost his mom, all his friends, and watched as everything he fought for was destroyed.
And now he's gotta share the new timeline with another version of himself.
I mean, after all he went through, I can see him saying fine, I can handle that, but I'm not sure if I'd call that very happy.
One Strip! One Strip!Or give him a chance to wish back his world via the Super Dragonballs.
But then they wouldn't have been able to force Frieza in I guess.
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Naw, it's always a good idea to be a contrarian.
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