vegeta is also in fucking pieces
Read my edit. And also - "minor" it's not minor if it's enough that he can't pair it with Super Saiyan Blue. Against an opponent even weaker than his God form.
That's a huge drawback - giving up your best form to beat someone weaker than your next best form. In many cases, it won't be worth it if you could just beat them up. It's useful for the cases where you can't.
edited 1st Oct '17 6:16:27 PM by Saiga
I'd say that having the Mafuba be affected by Power Levels removes the entire point of the technique in the first place. It was the move that even King Piccolo feared, because it was a technique that could seal away anyone, regardless of strength difference. It makes it less special if you can't even use it to beat someone thousands of times more powerful than you, and it makes no sense for the downsides to be less extreme if you're sealing away someone weaker.
You're arguing against an aspect of the technique that has been a consistent part of it since right after it was introduced and arguing for a very recent retcon that makes the technique worse.
It was never introduced as being able to seal someone regardless of power level. No-one made even a hyperbolic claim to that effect in the series. So rather than a 'consistent part of the technique' I am arguing against a particular interpretation of what was left ambiguous, and arguing in favour of something that removes ambiguity in favour of keeping it in its original role of being a last resort, niche technique.
The no limits fallacy is really bad for techniques like this, because it just makes them too good to use, especially when you tone down the only other downside to it. The manga's drawback still preserves this - you can seal someone more powerful than you, but the greater the gap, the higher the risk. It can fail if the gap is too great, which opens up the possibility You can't just have a weaker character throw his life away to seal some big bad and then wish him back for consequence free, instant problem solving.
The anime version of the technique is just... too good. It's literally unbeatable unless you've seen it before or they've already exhausted themselves.
And attack that works independent of power levels is a terrible idea for a series that depends on power levels to provide tension. The Mafuba would need a very serious drawback that prevented it from being able to solve every problem to still have tension, and even killing the user after one use isn't enough. Even having a high failure rate isn't enough, because they should still be attempting it when they're outmatched. Having it simply not work in certain circumstances prevents it being something they should attempt to use all the time.
edited 1st Oct '17 6:32:55 PM by Saiga
No-one in the series would want to use the Mafuba to defeat someone they would be capable of beating even without it. Even with the option, Goku wouldn't seal away Jiren or Beerus in a million years, because he wants to beat them with punches.
They didn't use the Mafuba to seal away Buu because Goku wanted to use him as a Starter Villain for the kids. They didn't use the Mafuba to seal away Cell because Goku wanted Gohan to have the kill. They rejected using the Dragon Balls to find Gero early because they wanted to fight robots. These characters don't like taking the easy way out.
Your argument against the Mafuba being able to seal away anyone and end all conflict is flawed because the characters have never and would never use it like that. The characters in Dragon Ball are dumb and they like to go about things the hard way. The only reason they tried on Zamasu was because they already tried punching him a lot and the Mafuba was their last resort.
Besides, just because it doesn't have any Power Level limits doesn't mean it's overpoweringly flawless. You can always just dodge it, hit the person while they're preparing it, break the vessel they're using for containing you beforehand, use the Mafuba reversal which is apparently real easy to figure out, or have someone else break you out of the vessel after the fact. You could even do the thing Goku did to restart his heart and fire a ki blast before getting sealed and have the ki blast come back and break the container.
It has more than enough flaws and weaknesses that making it also dependent on Power Levels makes the move almost not worth using unless you're up against an immortal.
edited 1st Oct '17 7:06:05 PM by PushoverMediaCritic
The fact that stupidity is the only thing that allows tension to exist with the Mafuba around is a terrible thing. There are plenty of times where Goku has been motivated enough to try anything to defeat an opponent, including permanently losing his sense of self. While he certainly wouldn't try the Mafuba as his first resort, there have been plenty of times where he has put aside his desire for punching to deal with the situation. If you're allowing the Mafuba to be an instant win technique, then you have to start engineering really specific situations where there are stakes but the characters aren't willing to use the Mafuba no matter how desperate it gets. That is incredibly constraining for the plot.
Goku was happy to let Zen-Oh to take care of Zamasu. He told Gohan not to mess around with Cell, he had no issue with Trunks being the one to end Freeza, he also didn't have an issue with preventing Boo from being released.
On top of that, very few people share Goku's extreme love of fighting, so you require the entire cast to be stupid to prevent the Mafuba from solving everything to the point of it being just plain bad writing. As for the characters never using it like that, yes they have. Roshi tried to use it like that. Tenshinhan tried to use it like that. God tried to use it like that. They failed, due to very specific circumstances, but they had every intend to successfully use the Mafuba to seal their opponent without fighting it. And they'd do it again if they were guaranteed to succeed.
All the counters you suggested for the Mafuba require having prior knowledge of it. Except for dodging it, which hasn't even shown to be an option.
It's a technique that's potentially useful in a variety of situations, without being useful in all of them. You can use it against stronger opponents at great risk (still worth it if you have a chance to succeed), you can use it against opponents who can't be killed (niche, but it's a pretty good niche when literally NOTHING else works), or against an opponent you don't WANT to kill (very easy to engineer that situation into the story).
I don't mind its effect being incredibly niche when it's the only practical thing that can fill that niche. That's a pretty powerful trait to have.
I'm actually ok with that. I assumed that was always the case.
Huh. Never thought of that, though that option is getting less and less viable as more and more characters have been wished back (especially since they can't keep running to New Namek all the time. I mean, they're probably gonna get a little sick of that).
One Strip! One Strip!![]()
You're basically saying that all of Z has a huge writing flaw because they never try the Mafuba, despite there being absolutely no reason not to (aside from that Cell would already know about it) because the Power Level flaw in it didn't exist at the time of writing Dragon Ball Z.
Like it or not, the characters being too dumb to think of these things and too muscle-headed to use them is one of the most consistent aspects of this franchise, and it will continue to be far in the future.
edited 1st Oct '17 7:13:59 PM by PushoverMediaCritic
No, I'm not saying that, because they never established the technique to have no limits.
I do think it's a flaw of the original arc to introduce the technique and not specify enough how it works, I've held that view long before Super was a thing. I don't blame the rest of the series for not being beholden to that technique, ignoring it is for the best unless they're going to set some proper guidelines for its use.
And if the characters are too dumb to think of it, why did they think of it on three separate occasions? You're really overstating how stupid they are to excuse poor writing. And even if I was of the view that everything after the 23rd was poorly written for ignoring the Mafuba, that would be absolutely no excuse for new material not to try any better.
edited 1st Oct '17 7:19:07 PM by Saiga
If we're just talking the three times it was used in Dragon Ball, those cannot be said to be 'seperate' by any definition of the word. Roshi tried to use the Mafuba to seal away King Piccolo because he thought it was the only way to win and Mutaito did it first. Tenshinhan tried the Mafuba because Roshi failed in his attempt against the same villain. Kami tried the Mafuba against Piccolo Jr because he learned it from the humans and was using it against almost the exact same villain as them.
The characters not using it against anyone not named "Piccolo" can be chalked up to stupidity and muscle-headedness. Also, it may not have been said to have no limits, but it also wasn't said to have any limits, and was introduced as an incredibly powerful move for sealing away powerful villains that can't be defeated otherwise, so it's not an unreasonable assumption to make.
No, it's definitely not reasonable to assume that something without a specified limit can just be used on anyone. Especially if that just makes the technique more problematic. It can be used on stronger opponents, that's true. Which is not the same as "it can be used on ANY opponent". It was created to seal a specific opponent who was too powerful to defeat otherwise, so it's able to circumvent that particular villain's difference in strength. That doesn't mean Mutaito was able to create a technique that would work on anyone, nor does it mean he even set out to do that. He created it to fill a very specific purpose, and I'm not saying it can only fill that purpose, but the specificity of it makes it different from Mutaito trying to create a technique without limits.
It's like how the Makankosappo was powerful enough to kill Raditz, without being powerful enough to kill anyone. It can raise Piccolo's power beyond his normal limits, but only by so much.
It's also just really silly to think that it makes sense for them to think of the technique against Piccolo, but not against any other opponent. That is way beyond the stupidity we have seen from any of them.
It'd be more logical to assume that the technique only specifically works on demons, or something. You can even have your power level independence with that condition and it works just fine. But at least the Super manga's drawback allows the technique to potentially be used in future situations, without making every situation that doesn't involve its use into an Idiot Plot.
edited 1st Oct '17 7:46:48 PM by Saiga
Which one are you saying that to?
Also, I'm going to chalk up the whole thing as Toriyama didn't think about it. The Mafuuba existed as a reason Piccolo was beaten the first time, but with a heavy price, then was used again (against Daimao twice in the anime, and once in the manga), used against Jr. which introduced the counter, and then, like many other concepts was left behind.
I suspect the reason it didn't come back until Super is because Toriyama didn't need it any more, and since he just made it up anyway, he didn't worrying about explaining it beyond what we'd already seen.
One Strip! One Strip!Ahh, I've found the logical fallacy the "no limits fallacy" actually draws from: Proof by Example.
The Mafuba worked on Piccolo, therefore it works on everyone stronger than the user <- this is Proof by Example fallacy.
I agree with that, and I think that's a flaw of the Daimao/23rd Budokai arcs for not adequately explaining the concept, in violation of Sanderson's First Law. The fact that the Mafuba never solved the problem makes this less egregious, however if the Mafuba is to be reintroduced as something that can solve a problem it better well be explained enough to understand it.
edited 1st Oct '17 7:57:43 PM by Saiga
Pushover: Mafuuba can take out anyone with enough time to prepare.
Saiga: Objection! There's no proof it can take out anyone!
Pushover: Objection! There's no proof it can't take out anyone!
And so on.
...I mean, there's no proof of either one, so lets just say that I'm right about everything and let this end.
Yes, the answer to all our problems is Handsome Rob is right. We'd settle more arguments if you all just accepted that.
edited 1st Oct '17 8:09:37 PM by HandsomeRob
One Strip! One Strip!The argument was jointly about that and whether that was better for the story as opposed to the manga's version.
In fact, it was mostly about what would be better for the story, because we already have an example (Super manga) where there is definitely a limit, and another (Super anime) where the limit is either non-existent or reaaaally high.
edited 1st Oct '17 8:10:46 PM by Saiga

As others have mentioned, Kami used it with no visible downsides in the very next arc after its introduction and Piccolo Jr reversed it easily. Not to mention Tenshinhan practicing with it a bunch alone perfectly fine. It was and still remains dangerous (my points about Roshi's latter two uses of it still stand), it's just not immediately life-threatening after using it once.
You said yourself that you had no problem with how the manga handled it, where Goku used it to contain Zamasu and only experienced minor tiredness afterwards.