Formerly G.G.
The Mafuba is the most sensational example, it was used as technique to seal evil entities like Piccolo but at the cost of the users life. In Super, Roshi can somehow use it without dying or trouble.
I don't mind the Mafuba simply because it got a full episode and a half dedicated to its return and the context for it, while still much more blase than before, was still engaging - at least imo.
My irritation that you can just spam it with little worse for the wear unless you really overdo it was already spent in the Goku Black Arc, mostly because I thought it still being fatal (or being fatal when used against a powerful enough opponent) would've made a much more interesting plot point for the use of it against Zamasu than what they ended up using. For the current arc, I'm just kind of shrugging about it.
edited 1st Oct '17 1:41:52 PM by KnownUnknown
In my opinion, Vegeta's Gamma Ray Flash from the manga is more awesome than basically any returning technique from the anime.
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!Could Frieza be considered a sort of ghost or revenant right now? Also, did Goku need to eat in the Other World or is he just being Goku? I think the latter since I doubt Frieza is being fed in that cocoon
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The same could be said of virtually every single attack in Dragon Ball. You have no argument.
All named energy attacks have a higher power than their user. The Kienzan is certainly an odd outlier, though.
I'm not so sure this is true, not for attacks "doing more damage than they should" at least. That doesn't really happen.
I also wonder why attacks even get names if they don't come back, it's totally pointless...just replace the name with the characters screaming.
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How is the Gamma Ray Flash any different from Super Vegeta's Final Flash being theoretically capable of killing Perfect Cell?
The power gap wasn't as wide...who knows?
And Cellery just let it happen...
edited 1st Oct '17 5:00:50 PM by randomness4
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.My irritation that you can just spam it with little worse for the wear unless you really overdo it was already spent in the Goku Black Arc, mostly because I thought it still being fatal (or being fatal when used against a powerful enough opponent) would've made a much more interesting plot point for the use of it against Zamasu than what they ended up using. For the current arc, I'm just kind of shrugging about it.
I don't mind the Mafuba's return, at least in the manga version, because it was previously a plot important technique that was significant in-universe and it is also the appropriate solution to an enemy like Zamasu. It makes sense to include it here, and they even elaborated on the technique further by explaining why it was lethal in the Daimao arc vs the 23rd Budokai arc. They keep the dangerous/non-spammable aspect of it - it consumes a large amount of stamina, and was enough that Goku couldn't sustain Blue after using it against someone weaker than him - and it will outright fail if the difference between them user and their opponent is too great, which means it isn't just some instant-win solution they can use to solve every problem going forward.
The way it meant nothing in the end was really dumb, but it had plot relevance and managed to further expand on the technique and come up with a plausible explanation for why it hasn't been the solution to their other problems.
The anime, however, allows someone as weak as Roshi to use it thrice without dying, with seemingly no limit on how strong an opponent he can use it on and no way for them to defend against the technique. That's just ridiculously broken, and there's no justification for why the Mafuba doesn't solve every problem from that point onward.
Similarly, I'm not opposed to the concept of the Kaio-ken coming back, because it's a plot significant technique and we know what function it has. The anime even tried to do the same thing as the Mafuba and explain why it didn't come back earlier. But the execution has... so many problems. The power scaling of having it is wacky, the context Goku uses it in/does not use it in is fairly arbitrary (like many of his forms) as are its drawbacks, it puts him well beyond Vegeta when they're still trying to portray them as equals, and it ultimately isn't even necessary to have as evidenced by its lack of usage and complete absence from the manga. It's also just awkward that it uses the same levels as the manga (x10 and x20 at max) without making some attempt to explain that as the upper limit of the technique or something. It'd be better off if it stayed incompatible with the transformations and give it to the characters who don't have transformations like Piccolo, Boo or Ultimate Gohan. It gets to come back, you get to make it plot important, it's not always in your face because the side characters aren't as active, and it feels more like a change/progression from the manga than it is just repeating something iconic from the past.
The Genki Dama is a move that can make sense if it returns in the proper context. Again, plot important move, the mechanics of which have been explained. It's a technique that's power is proportionate to what is put into it, and in different contexts it can be appropriately powerful. It's usage against Pure Boo really was 'bringing it back in a new context' already, so it can work. Unfortunately, "let's bring back the Spirit Bomb and power it up with a greater energy source than before!" has been done to death - it was done against Freeza and Pure Boo in the manga, it was done against Tullece and Slug in the movies (Tree of Might and sun energy respectively), it was done against Omega in GT (universal spirit bomb).
So even though there's the obvious possibilities of a multiverse spirit bomb or Zen-Oh Spirit Bomb, that'd still fail to be new enough to interest me. Jiren actually reflecting it back at Goku is interesting, because it's been alluded to before as a possibility but never successfully done so that's a cool throwback.
But as for the other techniques... they're not plot important, or mechanically detailed enough, to have any meaning if they return without the context that originally made them cool.
I disagree. At first, I wrote off the fact that it blasted Merged Zamasu to pieces as being Good Thing You Can Heal, but on re-reading, Merged Zamasu is just consistently not that tough. He gets a hole blown through him by Blue Goku. He gets a large chunk of his side destroyed by base Vegetto. He's absolutely no match for Blue Vegetto. "Completed" Blue Goku is able to fight toe-to-toe with him, and even punches off a chunk of his arm. Manga Zamasu isn't that powerful, so it makes sense that they don't get a Vegetto-tier fusion out of it (as cool as it would be to see Vegetto go up against an equal). All these instances are probably exaggerated by Good Thing You Can Heal, but Cell and Boo were also on the receiving end of that.
I think it's more like the anime techniques are consistently a lot weaker than they should be - look at what a point blank KHH from Goku does to Cell, who is superior to Goku. Then Goku uses the same tactic on Toppo, and his point blank Kamehameha... scuffs him up a little bit.
Being fair, I don't think Pushover is being influenced by nostalgia because in general he seems to prefer the Super anime over the original, or at least likes it as much.
edited 1st Oct '17 5:07:43 PM by Saiga
I'd say that Super's anime is about as good, if not slightly better, than Z's original anime, which was a poor adaptation of the Z manga.
On Roshi and the Mafuba, you're ignoring that the first one tired him to the point where firing a Kamehameha threatened his life, the second one was a failure because he was exhausted, and the third one was stolen by someone else and left Roshi in a state of near-death. He's not spamming it with no consequences. Roshi literally came within an inch of his life twice during his time in the tournament.
edited 1st Oct '17 5:55:23 PM by PushoverMediaCritic
I didn't say it had no consequences. It's still way beyond what he could do originally, and has several problems.
Also, it's not true that the first Mafuba exhausted him to that extent. He was fine afterward, then got the shit beaten out of him and eletrocuted by a stronger guy, then nearly died from overexertion. They do not allude to the Mafuba being responsible to all, the majority, or any of this exhaustion. It'd be logical if that were the case, but they make no allusion to it and show the opposite (he only shows signs of exhaustion as a direct result of being beaten up and damaged) so we can't make that assumption.
And yet, that still comes with all the others problems of making it easier and more effective to use and less risky.
I miss Dangerous Forbidden Technique actually being dangerous. Too many shonen have characters go 'THIS WILL KILL ME' and get all dramatic before surviving anyway, Dragon Ball was all "fuck that Chaozu's in fucking pieces, peace".
Not to say they can never be improved upon - I like that God and Goku can get away with using it once without dying, or that Tenshinhan can survive his Shin Kikoho - but when it comes to Roshi's performance, that really robs the technique of its significance and makes it too easy and too effective.
edited 1st Oct '17 6:11:28 PM by Saiga
To be fair, that might stem more from no-one caring from Chiaotzu.
I mean, seriously, who gives a fuck about him? Not Toriyama.
I do admit, Dragonball is pretty set on keeping it's dangerous techniques dangerous. Until the anime brought it back, no amount of training made certain levels of the Kaioken less dangerous. Goku was able to up the level he could go, but there was still a point he just couldn't cross without wrecking himself, and combining it with Super Saiyan was essentially a death sentence.
As for giving the re-introduced Kaioken to others, haven't you yourself pointed out that it'd be useless due to the power gap being so high? There's no point in anyone else using the Kaioken because they'd still be too weak, and just hurting themselves in the process.
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