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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#65101: Sep 29th 2017 at 4:57:39 AM

Zuno is not a one-off character. He does have a small but fairly important role in the arc after that one.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#65102: Sep 29th 2017 at 5:05:01 AM

[up][up] Motherfucker. But the episode's really boring!

Also, the ship her father built covered the space between two quadrants of the universe in six days and, like I said, that ship was built about fifteen years ago. Jaco acts like traveling out of your galaxy is basically impossible.

Then there's Goku not being able to sense the Kaioushin's ki for absolutely no reason.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#65103: Sep 29th 2017 at 5:12:27 AM

Goku can't sense godly ki unless he's actively using it.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#65104: Sep 29th 2017 at 6:49:08 AM

...Has Goku been ever shown to search for the Kaioshin's Ki?

When he reached the Kaioshin planet, he did so by sensing Gohan, not East or Kibito.

This makes me think Goku can't sense the Kai's either.

Have we talked about this before?

edited 29th Sep '17 6:49:27 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#65105: Sep 29th 2017 at 7:21:55 AM

Even without a Freudian Excuse, King Cold clearly had a negative impact on the young Frieza. From what little we get he comes off as a horrible father. I honestly don't blame Frieza for letting Cold rot in Hell, he probably deserves it

So what's your point, bad parents have an effect on people? That's so obvious it doesn't actually need to be stated. And of course Cold deserves to be in hell, he was the ruler of planet conquering empire, but that's not why Frieza didn't want to bring him back; their was no hatred or resentment it was just the usual callousness you'd expect from Frieza. It really seems like you're trying to force something that isn't there.

Again, Frieza doesn't need anymore reason to be evil other than he likes it. People really do make a mistake of thinking there's always something more to it. That's not even true in real life.

edited 29th Sep '17 7:23:23 AM by LSBK

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#65106: Sep 29th 2017 at 9:05:27 AM

Also, the Jaco thing happened in the manga too, so it's not filler.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#65107: Sep 29th 2017 at 9:37:44 AM

It's probably literally in Toriyama's notes: "Bulma gets Jaco to take her to the place of an all-knowing alien named Zuno. There, they get a few questions answered, including Bulma's current breast size (they're sagging due to age) and the Super Dragon Ball's backstory."

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#65108: Sep 29th 2017 at 2:26:42 PM

I believe the comment about chest sagging was in the notes.

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#65109: Sep 29th 2017 at 2:33:01 PM

But apparently all he wrote about the Exhibition Match is that it happened, and not even who fought.

Sometimes I feel Toriyama's priorities are a bit skewed.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#65110: Sep 29th 2017 at 2:34:31 PM

Hasn't he just straight up admitted the gags are the most important thing to him? A gag mangaka at heart, he said, right?

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#65111: Sep 29th 2017 at 2:39:22 PM

[up] It's why the Buu and Gotenks fight went the way it did, because Toriyama just wanted to amuse himself. lol

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#65112: Sep 29th 2017 at 2:56:47 PM

I did say him writing a good fighting series was just incidental lol.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#65113: Sep 29th 2017 at 3:02:53 PM

@Hamburger - I don't think Cold or Dabra were wasted. Cold could only ever be inferior to Freeza without being a very lasy retcon, and Freeza had already been surpassed. Him being a reason for Freeza to come back in and establish the new threat is good enough, the story needed to move on from that.

Dabra may have a stand out design and more could have been done with him but I don't think there's any real reason there should have been. I would have liked for Gohan and him to get a proper, conclusive fight (like just before Boo is released) but the Boo arc fights were too short in general.

@Zel - welcome to Super. The Kaioshin thing will get explained later, and the explanation is kind of dumb. But yeah, if you thought that episode was filler you probably are better skipping through the subs.

Gehayadren Bad Movie Binge Collector from A Garbage Fire Since: Jun, 2016 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#65114: Sep 29th 2017 at 3:03:10 PM

I can't wait until Goku punches Ribrianne's lights out. She's been nothing but a pest.

Ha ha ha. What a story, Mark.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#65115: Sep 29th 2017 at 3:12:38 PM

Cold could only ever be inferior to Freeza without being a very lasy retcon, and Freeza had already been surpassed.

Then why did he even need to exist?

Him being a reason for Freeza to come back in and establish the new threat is good enough, the story needed to move on from that.

Did Frieza really need to come back just to be worfed though? I mean, I guess using him was a good way to make it clear how bad the androids were (since Trunks stomped him, and the Androids were stomping Trunks), but then again, I'm beginning to think that the Android Arc should have happened before the Saiyan Arc (with some obvious changes mind you, since there'd be no way to introduce Cell if that happened) since a bunch of teenagers suddenly being stronger than the strongest mortal being in the universe (and by accident at that) just because of inferior Earth Tech is pretty ridiculous.

Dabra may have a stand out design and more could have been done with him but I don't think there's any real reason there should have been. I would have liked for Gohan and him to get a proper, conclusive fight (like just before Boo is released) but the Boo arc fights were too short in general.

Honestly, Dabra and the demon world could have been an arc in and of themselves. He definitely deserved better than to be a measuring stick for Buu. But that's purely my opinion really.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#65116: Sep 29th 2017 at 3:29:51 PM

What's the harm in Cold existing? If Freeza was just brought back by his goons, it'd be the same. At least this way we get to see a little more about him.

I also dislike the idea of Abdroids before Saiyans, I know it gets brought up a lot, but I think it's a terrible idea:

  • You'd either lose Cell, or need to split the arcs in two, completely breaking the narrative flow.
  • Same thing with Trunks, and the time travel. You can't have Trunks as a character in that period, and the time travel wouldn't make sense if the traveller comes from a future where Raditz would still arrive and ruin everything.
  • The Androids' characters end up having no character without a greater evil to fight. 16 in particular becomes completely pointless, and you don't get his or Satan's contributions to the Cell Games.
  • Inserting an arc between 23rd Budokai and Saiyan arcs really ruins the dynamics of the Saiyan arc. Goku and Piccolo teaming up doesn't have the same weight, Gohan's hidden power and Piccolo's redemption should be explored, etc. You'd have to set it before Gohan's birth (ridiculously tight) and ignore Piccolo for the entire arc in order to keep the Saiyan arc meaningful.

Once you remove Cell, Trunks and time travel from the equation, the Android arc becomes a Big-Lipped Alligator Moment and pure filler with no room for development or consequences. Then the later Cell arc becomes totally boring with one antagonist, incredibly simple time travel and a lack of mystery.

All this just to make preserve Freeza's completely undeserved legacy. He was the strongest guy in the universe just because. He shouldn't be treated as some insurpassable ideal.

As for Dabra: he doesn't have much character, I don't se how he 'deserved' anything. The idea of him having an arc to himself also sounds like it could just be filler.

edited 29th Sep '17 3:30:34 PM by Saiga

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#65117: Sep 29th 2017 at 3:35:45 PM

Earth tech in DB is pretty ridiculous, actually - to the point where the public found it totally believable that Capsule Corp created a giant wish-granting dragon.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#65118: Sep 29th 2017 at 3:48:31 PM

Except we never saw what Dabura was like before he joined up with Babidi, so maybe we could have had something that explored that. Because really, all we have to go off now is video game material and a possible appearance in Sand Land.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#65119: Sep 29th 2017 at 3:53:39 PM

We could have, but that doesn't change that we didn't see much of a character with him on-screen.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#65120: Sep 29th 2017 at 3:54:39 PM

Because he was pretty much made to be completely loyal to Babadi at that point, though he did still question him on a few of his plans.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#65121: Sep 29th 2017 at 3:56:21 PM

The reason why doesn't matter at all. We have no indication that the uncontrolled Dabra would be more interesting.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#65122: Sep 29th 2017 at 3:57:12 PM

My problem with Dabura is that he's built up as a Cell-caliber baddie, complete with his own realm that he rules, and yet all he gets is a couple inconclusive fights and then jobbing to the actual new Big Bad. In any other manga, he'd actually be a significant Arc Villain.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#65123: Sep 29th 2017 at 3:59:44 PM

Dragon Ball not being like other manga has been one of its strengths.

The whole point of him being a Cell-tier enemy is to show how the characters have moved passed that. It's not meant to be impressive.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#65124: Sep 29th 2017 at 4:01:38 PM

Except that can also be considered a weakness to some as well; remember, Dragon Ball isn't really all that great in the long run, once to stop and analyze everything about it.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#65125: Sep 29th 2017 at 4:02:47 PM

[up][up] I can see that interpretation. The heroes have gotten so complacent that even an angry archdemon as strong as the genetic death machine they just barely scraped off a win against isn't a big deal to them, making their subsequent awakening all the ruder.

I still think it's a waste we never saw his realm, at least.

[up] Eh, DB is as good as they say to me. Only have a few minor quibbles.

edited 29th Sep '17 4:03:21 PM by HamburgerTime


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