Well, it's mainly because Frieza suddenly learned pragmatism while Frost lost his cool.
One Strip! One Strip!Yes, but the gap between Roshi and Frost/Magetta/Dercori should be waaaaaaay larger than the gap between Roshi and Daimao. It might have been a manga only detail, but I vastly prefer that over just having the move be spammable and lose its lethality.
One of DB's strengths was that it made lethal techniques actually feel lethal - a lot of other shonen always do a fake out or last minute save which is lame af. Making the Mafuba something even Roshi can spam just raises the question of why it isn't used more often, especially if the anime doesn't even have a limit on it.
Or, you know, Super's power levels just don't make sense.
I saw final form Freeza in a magazine before I saw him in the show, and thought it was a female relative of Freeza. I also thought "oh geez, is she there to hit on Goku or something?!" thinking of characters like Black Cat or that moth girl from The Tick.
edited 23rd Sep '17 9:23:41 PM by Saiga
It's hard to take "Goku can't even touch Ribrianne! Can he win this fight?" seriously when he has lit-er-al-ly six (soon to be seven) transformations waiting in the wings. I get the whole "gotta conserve energy" thing, but it kills the tension a lot of the time. Should at least have him in Super Saiyan.
edited 23rd Sep '17 9:51:35 PM by Moth13
For starters, Saiyan Beyond God has never been even hinted at in the show and there are many problems with its existence - mostly, lack of acknowledgement from everyone, the fact that the so-called "SBG" does not have Godly ki (Kuririn can sense his power until he turns SSB), there being no explanation for why he'd use old Super Saiyan forms if SBG is just superior, no explanation for what SBG actually is (due to it not being officially confirmed) and fan explanations running into separate roadblocks depending on what avenue they took.
And then you've got Goku performing unusual feats outside of his "SBG" state - Super Saiyan 2 Goku fighting fairly evenly with Ultimate Gohan, after they also fought evenly in their base states.
If you extend SBG to meaning that Goku can freely use any amount of his God powers in any of his transformations as well, and that he just uses random levels of both on a whim with no consistency to the context he's in or his behaviour, then sure, you'd solve a lot of the power inconsistencies by removing anything that can be used as a measure to gauge power in the first place.
There's literally nothing that disproves its existence and there's a boatload of evidence for it. There is a source for it in Heroes, and the writers for the show have obviously decided to put it in the show itself. Why would the characters start talking about it now when Goku first used it in Resurrection 'F'? I think the writers of Super have done a good job of showing the existence of Saiyan Beyond God through context clues instead of just telling us.
Seriously, why are you so opposed to the Saiyan Beyond God form when all it does is provide a satisfactory answer to all of your questions regarding base Goku and Vegeta's strength? Just give in to logic.
The Power Levelling in this and the last episode goes like this: Golden Freeza >> Ultimate Gohan >>> Ribrianne >= Base Goku = Final Form Freeza >>> Magetta >= Super Saiyan 1 Vegeta > Frost ~ Jimmies >= Base Gohan = Base Vegeta > Roshi. There is only one contradiction there, and it is easily fixed by replacing Base Goku with Saiyan Beyond God Goku.
Gohan was clearly holding back when fighting Super Saiyan 2 Goku, as shown when he put up a fight against Blue Goku almost immediately afterwards.
edited 23rd Sep '17 10:44:01 PM by PushoverMediaCritic
See now, I think your last bit sums up Saiga's (and others) points. Your taking that to mean Gohan was holding back, Saiga takes things like that to mean that Super just straight up doesn't care and makes characters as strong or as weak as they need to be for whatever is dramatically appropriate.
I lean more towards the latter as well, and previous similar discussions frankly don't make me very confident in your reasoning.
I mean, he actually managed to force Goku to use his Kaioken Blue skill against him once he finally went all out with his Ultimate state.
Plus, I'd like to point out that Toei has made it clear in the past that Saiyan Beyond God was a thing, since SSGSS was originally described in promotional material as the result of a "God-like Saiyan" turning into a Super Saiyan. That and you have Toyotaro using it in Super as well, since the white auras Goku and Vegeta had when they went up against Infinite Zamas in the manga for a final charge looked identical to the white aura Goku had when he fought Frieza in the Resurrection F promotional manga; and you know, that also had the image of God Goku appearing briefly behind "Base" Goku when he fought Whis, implying that Goku was drawing on God's power during that, or at the least had managed to rival that power on his own, depending on how one interprets it.
edited 23rd Sep '17 10:56:14 PM by Ssj3Gojira
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!It's not logic. Logic is going with the simplest answer - Super has multiple writers and isn't completely consistent. Some of those writers might be on board with SBG, but we don't even know what that means because nothing has ever described or explained it. Heroes referenced it as the name of an ability for a placeholder transformation.
Most of the evidence for SBG is just the fact that the show makes absolutely no sense without something like it. But that's even more simply explained by the power levels being as inconsistent as the rest of the show is.
I didn't have a problem with SBG - I accepted it when RF was released, I then considered that it might be something Goku can opt out to explain universe 6, but on the whole I am lead to the conclusion that SBG is an imperfect, complicated fan rationalization that constantly needs to be revised as it fails to fit new content that is released. Even with SBG, the show isn't consistent anyhow, and then you run into the aforementioned problems of having no actual official explanation of what the form is which is definitely suspect for something that is supposedly integral to making sense of the show. Why come up with something that complex and never document or explain it? The motive behind that is incomprehensible.
As for Gohan 'clearly' holding back, that's not clear at all. Gohan showed no signs of holding back, nobody mentioned as such, he didn't behave like he was holding back and he was shown to genuinely struggle. The fact that he then puts up a fight with Blue Goku can't be taken as evidence of anything, because the two examples we've got of his strength are contradictory with no explanations provided. You can look at today's episode to see how characters holding back are presented - they immediately focused on Freeza's first attack, showed Gohan noticing it, and then turned around and explained the whole thing with a flashback to that. THAT is what clearly holding back looks like.
Just in the episode before, Frost mentions he's holding back, and also explains why he's doing so. That clarity is completely missing from the Gohan vs Goku example.
We shouldn't expect the RF promotional manga to be in continuity with Super's manga, just as RF and Super have differed. That leaves only Goku and Vegeta's white auras, with nothing to compare them to. Since the rest of the manga has been completely lacking in SBG, I doubt that's an example, it appears as though they were just too low on energy to transform and that is their base forms' full power.
edited 23rd Sep '17 10:58:07 PM by Saiga
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Except again, those auras are identical to the one Goku had when he fought Frieza in the manga version; plus, remember that the entire Resurrection F Saga was skipped in the manga, because Toyotaro had already done it for the promotional manga. That itself implies that the events that took place in that can be used with Manga!Super's timeline of events; Goku and Vegeta probably just learned how to reuse God on their own during the three years they spent training together before the Tournament of Destroyers.
I mean, Super does play looser with Power Levels than Z did, but the characters still have some amount of consistency to them. Vegeta goes Super Saiyan 1 to fight Magetta every single time he shows up now, because the writers are consistent in that Magetta is around SS1 level.
That's just one example, if you actually chart out how strong all characters are in comparison to other characters (as I've done), you'll see that Super may play loose with the power-ups characters get, but how strong they actually are compared to each other is remarkably consistent. There's only a few hiccups, and the vast majority of those are in relation to Goku and Vegeta's strength in base, specifically how it fluctuates between around a level of power between Namek Freeza and Android 18 to a much more powerful base in the realm of the gods.
As a scientist, when you have an otherwise consistent set of data that has this bizarre inconsistency that appears again and again and again in a pattern, it's not an inconsistency. It's a whole new data point that must be graphed, and what do you know, filling in Goku's stronger base with a whole new transformation that just happens to look like his base (not an unheard-of phenomenon in Dragon Ball, either) works perfectly!
Even if Saiyan Beyond God didn't already exist in another medium with a name and all, I would still be theorizing of its existence, because it makes complete and total sense.
Vegeta went SSB against Magetta in the most recent episode. There's also the Trio de Dangers not really representing the same threat level they were in the exhibition match (Lavender now tanking one of base Gohan's attacks just fine, putting pressure on base Vegeta, the whole group beam struggling with two SSBs)
We also don't have an otherwise consistent set of data, here. Again, I accepted SBG back when I thought it was sufficient to explain the differences. But the lack of any acknowledgement, and the lack of it actually working to explain away the differences, and the rotating writing staff all throw several wrenches into the theory.
Also, Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist in another medium - it was replaced with SSGSS on the release of resurrection F. Furthermore, that's not the actual name used, further furthermore, the name given was used for a skill to activate the transformation - in Heroes, these are not always the same, skill names that activate transformations can be whatever and are often quite flowery.
edited 23rd Sep '17 11:32:53 PM by Saiga
So is making up numbers so that they fit the conclusions you want to reach, with no other logic or founding than "It makes sense in my head", also scientific?
My various fanfics.![]()
Cause he was pissed from getting sealed away and wanted to eliminate them without much trouble. His first instinct against Magetta was still to go SS1. Vegeta didn't try to, like, fight Magetta in base or Blue as his first response to him showing up.
Strawman.
edited 23rd Sep '17 11:33:17 PM by PushoverMediaCritic
That is a very low bar for consistency. And I agree with Sharknado, your method for examing this is not very close to scientific method at all due to providing your own rationalizations and completely dismissing one of the possibilities (Super being inconsistent) from the outset.
edit: That's not a strawman at all. It's a valid criticism. You haven't really presented any arguments beyond "it makes sense" or "there's lots of evidence". You haven't presented this evidence, just informed us that you have checked and it makes sense to you.
edited 23rd Sep '17 11:36:19 PM by Saiga
Heck, it's not even an exaggeration, it's an actual thing you do. There's been plenty of times where you make up your own power levels and use them as some sort of basis for fact, despite the fact that they're not canon in any universe but you own.
My various fanfics.

I like how Freeza manged to kill someone without breaking the rules. Expert sadist.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.