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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#64151: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:09:42 PM

Having conflict means that a character is at a disadvantage in whatever that character needs to grow in, which makes them a form of underdog. 'Underdog' is just a term for 'character on the losing side'.

You also don't need to have your character be the underdog all the time, and the amount of time you feel satisfaction for them coming out on top is proportional to the amount of time they've spent on bottom.

Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 and crushing Cell with it is triumphant and satisfying at first, because Cell's been lording his power over everyone since he became Perfect, but eventually we start to get bored at about the same time Gohan does. Having Cell come back from a suicidal play stronger than ever and then immediately breaking Gohan's arm puts him right back on top, forcing Gohan to pull out even more power he didn't know he had in order to come out victorious.

Notice that both Gohan in Super Saiyan 2 and Goku in Super Saiyan 1 get bored fighting Cell and Freeza but Gohan gets bored a lot quicker than Goku does. This is because Freeza's been on top with his insurmountable power for a lot longer than Cell did, the entirety of his time as a character as opposed to just his time in that particular form.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#64152: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:18:42 PM

[up][up]Which is funny, because this whole argument only happened because of the word itself and not whatever intention anything thought we had behind it.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#64153: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:21:48 PM

That's not what the actual definition of an underdog is. It is specifically a competitive term, one that is expected to lose. Now, that's not really how we're using it in the context of fiction, but it's nothing like the definition you have supplied and that is so generic that it loses all meaning. It doesn't fit the conversation we were having, it doesn't mean much in Weak, but Skilled or Badass Normal discussions because you can still have stronger or abnormal characters who are the ones at a disadvantage.

So by your definition of underdog, you've actually made no argument that Weak, but Skilled should be favoured. The example you just gave is even entirely related to power.

The characters getting bored also has nothing to do with the underdog discussion.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#64154: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:26:34 PM

I get the appeal of the underdog narrative, but I agree with Saiga that the narrative feel is different from the literary definition. A real underdog would suck at most relevant things they do, which characters like Saitama and Gohan don't.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#64155: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:28:01 PM

Yeah, I'd hesitate to call Goku vs Freeza or Gohan vs Cell underdog fights either. While both start weaker than their opponent, it's just not narratively set up such that they're underdogs - in both cases, the audience is given the built-up expectation that the heroes are going to pull something out of their sleeves. With Gohan, especially, we're outright told (with hints outside of dialogue here and there, like having no problem following the previous fight) that he's got this as long as he can get in the mindspace to do so.

A better "final battle" underdog example is probably something like the Kid Buu finale, where everyone involved on the heroes' side is demonstrably too weak to win, it's made clear they're not going to get powerful enough to win, and their only chance is a slim chance with an ultimate technique that they need to survive long enough to pull on. It's a fight where its clear if they can't hold out, they will be wiped out, and there's nothing they can do about that fact but take it just long enough to turn it around.

edited 16th Sep '17 6:32:08 PM by KnownUnknown

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#64156: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:32:43 PM

Wait, that's not true at all. The Kid/Pure Boo fight starts with Goku and Vegeta turning down an easy way to win (potara) and not taking it seriously because they're still confident they'll win, before it gets harder because Goku believes he has the power to win but needs an opening to use it, before before realizing the drawback to Super Saiyan 3, at which point Vegeta thinks of the Dragon Balls and Goku points out they can just get the much stronger Gohan/Gotenks to come in and finish this and Vegeta opts to go for the Genki Dama mostly for symbolism and because he's sure it'll work.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#64157: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:34:55 PM

The characters getting bored is to enforce that the audience isn't interested in them staying on top for too long, since it happens at the approximate same time the audience starts to get bored with the characters being on top.

Having the characters be Weak, but Skilled is a good way to have our underdog characters win against more powerful opponents without falling into the same trap DBZ did and just flooding the characters with new transformations anytime the power dynamic needed shaking up.

And yes, it is possible to portray a Weak, but Skilled character as having the advantage over an underdog Unskilled, but Strong character, but it's uncommon in fiction and it's more importantly about how the writing portrays the character than if the character actually has an overwhelming advantage or not.

I'm not saying Weak, but Skilled is always preferable as a way to show your character as being at an inherent disadvantage, but it is a good tool to use and I'm glad it's being used more often nowadays.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#64158: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:35:23 PM

So...I'm re-watching the Goku vs Nappa fight...

Why did this fight go on as long as it did? Nappa was a mere 4000, while Goku was OVER 9000 over 8000.

Goku took out Recoome with one hit while barely trying. Yet Nappa consistent took his attacks, and even reached the point of (seemingly) fighting him equally. I say seemingly because Goku was still toying with him, but at that level, his barest effort should have taken Nappa out from the get go.

Hell, it's baffling he needed the Kaiouken to catch up to Nappa, when his higher Power Level should have meant he'd catch the latter with ease, head start or not.

I'm clearly missing something. Lets talk about that instead.

edited 16th Sep '17 7:16:43 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#64159: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:37:11 PM

My guess is Recoome's fight was quick because Nappa's was so long - though this is from a Doylist point of view. Toriyama had just done that set up, with the same "Goku effortlessly smackdowns a guy wrecking the other heroes" punchline, so it makes sense for one to end a little differently from the other.

Also, in context, Recoome's was funnier. and the Ginyu Force wrecking our heroes was on the whole meant to be a funnier experience than Nappa wrecking our heroes. Also, I feel like that sustained battle - having Goku fight Nappa seemingly more evenly before wrecking him - has more of a dramatic payoff that Toriyama might have felt we needed there.

edited 16th Sep '17 6:40:51 PM by KnownUnknown

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
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#64160: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:37:42 PM

Nappa is implied to have been holding back the whole time because he saw all the Z-fighters as too weak for him, If I recall.

Because he does seem to use more power in an attempt to fight goku, even if it fails.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#64161: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:38:36 PM

I think Nappa's official measurement of 4,000 is hogwash and his performance is more suited to someone with a Power Level of 6,000-7,000. That's pretty much all my thoughts on that fight.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#64162: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:40:02 PM

Speaking of Nappa, I remember reading somewhere that Kishimoto stated Nappa is the strongest DB character than any Naruto character could beat. This legit? That seems too low to me; Madara and the Otsutsukis seemed to be at least Namek villains level, given they were Reality Warpers.

edited 16th Sep '17 6:40:16 PM by HamburgerTime

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#64163: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:40:18 PM

Nappa being that close to Goku (6000-7000) does not mesh at all with how they react to him.

edited 16th Sep '17 6:40:43 PM by LSBK

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#64164: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:42:23 PM

[up]x7 Now you're making a lot of assumptions and speaking on behalf of the entire fanbase. How do you know when everyone gets bored with those moments, other than anecdote?

I also disagree that DB fell into a trap. One of the main themes of the series, stated by Toriyama himself (so I'm not just assuming his motives here), is "getting stronger". The transformations and escalations fit the theme he was going for, Weak, but Skilled does not. You can have them become more skilled in the same way, but that is just as capable of falling into a trap as continued strength escalation (with skill escalation being very hard to consistently show).

Why would Weak, but Skilled being used more often be a point in its favour? What makes that better than doing something different?

I think it's a tool like any other, not inherently worth using more than anything else. It can, and has, been used incredibly poorly.

edited 16th Sep '17 6:42:41 PM by Saiga

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#64165: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:42:35 PM

[up][up][up]There's no interview of the sort. It's one of those rumors that gained traction.

edited 16th Sep '17 6:42:54 PM by VeryMelon

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#64166: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:42:38 PM

Nappa is the zero point I give for a lot of anime-to-DBZ comparisons, because his feat of effortlessly smashing a city with two fingers isn't just a big feat, it's a very obvious feat that's easily compared to.

A lot of anime characters can do huge damage with ki blasts, but if X character can't ki blast a city to oblivion without it explicitly being their limit, or can't at all, they (probably) can't beat Nappa. So generally, when I think about stuff like that I start there, with "can X strongest character beat Nappa?" and go backwards from there as much as needed.

edited 16th Sep '17 6:44:38 PM by KnownUnknown

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
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#64167: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:43:27 PM

Most Mecha Anime stomp Nappa into paste, really.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#64168: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:44:33 PM

Goku mentioned that Recoome left himself wide open, while with Nappa Goku noted that he's incredibly durable and once he calmed down he was actually quite tough to beat.

Nappa freaked out at the reading of Goku at 5,000 so I think the 4,000 figure works for him. He's just a very durable guy, and very capable when he keeps his cool.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#64169: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:45:01 PM

Naruto capped out at moon-busting, right? Naruto characters capping out at Nappa sounds accurate to me, if even a little bit of an overestimation.

I think over 8,000 is still enough of a difference between it and 6,000-7,000 to make their reactions make sense. Remember that Goku came in holding back at 5,000, which neither Vegeta nor Nappa batted much of an eye at.

edited 16th Sep '17 6:45:50 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#64170: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:48:32 PM

Yes, they did. Nappa was shocked when Vegeta first read his power as 5,000.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
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#64171: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:50:01 PM

Naruto and Sasuke are moon level, if not small planet level at least (They both around Sage of Sixth Path's strengths, and his moon creation would take a lot more energy then blowing it up).

Kaguya is around Planet level with Prep time, with her Gigantic Truth Seeking Ball.

Arceuid from the Nasuverse is also around that level, though instead of blowing up moon, she drops them on people instead.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#64172: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:50:55 PM

Piccolo destroyed the moon at less than a tenth of Nappa's power, and that is discounting Roshi as an outlier.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#64173: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:52:33 PM

I once saw a big chart of (at least one person's opinion of) the strongest characters in all anime. Beerus and God Goku were only about halfway up. Sailor Moon's hypothetical full potential was one of the highest, believe it or not.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#64174: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:53:08 PM

True. On the other hand, there's no indication on what the power level of his moon destroyer blast was, since the ki blasts themselves generally read stronger then they themselves generally get read, which is why Goku and piccolo could get the drop on Raditz.

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Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
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#64175: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:55:12 PM

Episode:

Holy cow, Jiren is literally One Punch Man! [lol]

Roshi really bitten Frost bait hook line and sinker.

Frost figured out how to counter Mafuba after one time.

Roshi finally goes down, but he had a good run. Also, we can put that silly Ending Elimination Theory to rest now.

Meanwhile Goku spent all this time comparing auras with Ribrianne, instead of transforming and going to help Roshi. Or you know, just teleporting there.


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